Threaded Order Chronological Order
| It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Which seems to be the downfall of spacey, Weinstein and hammer. I can’t think of any that are just work abuse screaming and throwing stuff that were brought down. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 09:49 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It isn’t sexual based - dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Abuse is abuse. Sexual, Physical, Verbal, Emotional. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:45 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - KingSpeed 09:49 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| On one level, yes, but not all forms of abuse are crimes (and all crimes are not equal). I think there is a danger in creating an equivalency. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 07:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 11:45 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| where there is a clear and distinct pattern of abuse, the behavior rises to criminality. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:11 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - manchurch03104 07:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| I don't necessarily disagree, but for something to "rise to criminality" we have to have a legislature pass a law defining it and making it a crime. A law criminalizing "a clear and distinct pattern of abuse," without more, would be void for vagueness and thus a denial of due process. And even as a crime, as I said, their are gradations of heinousness. Sexual abuse>physical abuse>emotional abuse>verbal abuse, generally speaking. What we need are laws that very clearly set the boundaries. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:19 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 10:11 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Verbal abuse *is* generally speaking emotional abuse, and I would equate being yelled at in front of your colleagues as no less violent than being physically harmed in front of your colleagues, even if the scars aren't visible. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:33 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 03:19 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| I would say we must (and the law does) distinguish between offenses based on nuanced gradations. I think it is dangerous to lump everything in one pot and treat it as equally offensive. We don't punish based on "generally speaking," and we shouldn't. It's a tricky and not simple subject. There are many factors that go into these definitions and that result in different degrees of culpability. What was the intent? What was the circumstance? What was the relationship? What were the words? The list goes on. There is verbal abuse that, while not something to praise, does not rise to the level of actionable conduct. (E.g., I yelled at an umpire who makes a bad call. He heard me.) You think yelling at a person in front of colleagues because they lost some important document is worse than yelling in private about something truly humiliating that leaves the person devastated (and yes scarred)? My point is that we practice injustice when we punish without asking a lot of questions, and also without providing clear lines distinguishing between things. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:37 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 06:33 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Yelling is yelling. After working at a theater where the person in charge routinely yelled at everyone, I lost my ability to excuse or parse that abuse as being less than other forms of abuse. Both actions that you describe are about humiliating someone else, and the public nature of yelling at someone in an office is part of that humiliation. There is no call for yelling *at someone* in an office, even if an important document has been lost (I'm trying to make a distinction here for a person exclaiming loudly in frustration, versus someone yelling directly at an employee), as that creates a toxic workplace that operates on fear and degradation. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 03:37 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I think we are talking about different things (both nonetheless bad). I think there are actions that create a toxic workplace and we have (and should have more and better) laws and sanctions addressing these things. But yelling at someone because they lost a document is not a crime, and I don't think we want for it to be equated with throwing office equipment at people (or grabbing someone's breasts or shooting them etc etc ) in the eyes of the law. When we equate, we diminish the severity of the more egregious behavior, and that's bad. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:01 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 05:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| What are you imagining the person is yelling at the other person when the document gets lost? | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:02 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 09:01 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I wasn't imagining. It actually happened. Mostly it was in the nature of a generalized freakout about the consequences of not having a signed document that was needed that day. [It was found, later that day, accidentally attached to the back of something else by a paper clip so there is a happily ever after aspect to this.] I am not sure why you asked. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:22 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 11:02 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I asked to see if we could role play and get deeper into the specifics of what's being said and how it's being directed at the person. And then also, the follow-up question would be if this was a one-time situation, followed by a genuine apology and change in behavior, or if this kind of yelling happened on a weekly basis. In the situation that I've been in, the yelling was constant and frequent and part of a larger set of tools that the person in charge used to humiliate the staff and artists who worked at the theater. I do think that those specifics can help us parse where we want to draw the boundaries on acceptable and unacceptable. |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 05:11 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:56 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 11:22 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I thought I had responded on this before. I am not really into role play. I don't think the situation I described was Rudin-esque. It was not one time but it was also not weekly. I think it was mostly a result of freaking out about the consequences. I think the "larger set of tools" can be a useful perspective. I want to add a few more things that are worth saying. People are talking about crimes but not everything illegal is a crime. In New York, harassment is illegal even if it is not pervasive. (The only defense available to the employer (other than denial obviously) is that the complained about action(s) were "petty slights or trivial inconveniences.”) Another interesting aspect of the current law is that confidentiality agreements do not apply to communications with an attorney or any governmental entity that has jurisdiction, and it is the employee's choice if any settlement is confidential. There's more of course, but there is zero doubt that Rudin's conduct would be proscribed and actionable. Oh and an employee can be awarded punitive damages and attorney's fees. | |
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| Joss Whedon... | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 02:38 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 02:32 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It isn’t sexual based - dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| ... has mostly been brought down due to bullying, not sexual impropriety. I don't imagine he'll ever be put in charge of a set again. |
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| Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It isn’t sexual based - dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| His bullying has been well chronicled, and this report takes it a step further. Will anyone care? Maybe not - as you say, this isn't sexual abuse, which seems to be the only one people care about - but bullying is endemic to the entertainment industry (including NYC theater), and there are people who are hopeful that we can actually change the culture to be less toxic. We'll see what happens... | |
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| re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Posted by: Lillebear 05:16 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I do hope this gets some traction. Bullying is, indeed, endemic to the entertainment industry. I witnessed a very well known Broadway director screaming at multiple people on the Creative team, always men. I asked around and found that this person would never be abusive to leading or featured actors, only to "lesser" creatives - and I chose the word "lesser" carefully - and people in the ensemble. The director's reputation around NYC was as a "screamer." I can't say who the director is as they have been known to bad-mouth and lie about people they think have crossed them and have tried to "blacklist" them from working in NYC. Not worth the risk. Just after witnessing this, I heard a wonderful phrase from a Grip on a film: "being an insufferable megalomanic is by no ways a prerequisite to making great films." |
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| re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 11:12 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:08 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - Lillebear 05:16 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| And this right here is part of the ongoing issue. This person is terrified to post the name of an abusive person in their professional life EVEN ON AN ANONYMOUS FORUM for fear of retaliation. We have a culture that excuses horrific behavior if the abuser is talented enough and it isn't new and it has to stop. We still hear stories about Jerome Robbins that cuddle the blood...but he was a genius, so it's all okay. Arthur Laurents seems to have gotten a pass for all kinds of abusive behavior. None of this is okay and we, as a culture, need to not protect abusers just because they're talented. I don't care if this director referenced here has 10 Tonys and is in line to have a theatre named after him/her, this behavior needs to stop and, if it doesn't, this person's career needs to end. There are a lot of talented people out there who aren't abusive and, if we clear out some of these garbage humans, maybe we can make room for some of them. But how do we do that if people are terrified of retaliation if they name names? |
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| Who? | |
| Posted by: reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - JereNYC 11:08 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| So we have "a culture that excuses horrific behavior" and "it has to stop." "This behavior needs to stop or this person's career needs to end." So who is going to stop what? 1) Stop the culture from excusing, or 2) Stop the horrific behavior? Who is in charge of putting the accused parties on trial, amassing and evaluating the evidence, in what forum, and under what authority, using what powers to "end" someone's career? Stories about Jerome Robbins? I've heard generalities, but no specific stories. I'm not saying there weren't any; I just don't know what they are. Likewise Arthur Laurents. I worked (several times) with one of the most famous Broadway composers, whose personal abusiveness I experienced firsthand. None of it was actionable, as extremely unpleasant as it was. He's dead now, so no amorphous Someone or Committee can end his career, nor did I ever detect anything actionable, either legally, or in violation of any union (not that any had control over his career or work habits or social relations.) I worked with one of the most manipulative, emotionally abusive Broadway dance captains I could imagine – she worked and wreaked havoc upon people's lives for decades. She answered to no one, except maybe the aging choreographer, who was offsite almost throughout. The most successful choreographer of our current time has an abusive side about which I heard first hand. So – yeah, some highest-level people in our biz (and in any biz) are eligible for the term "abusive." I get it, I've heard it, I've seen it. Two other considerations: It isn't just power-people. A number of stars in various media (inc. theatre) are nightmare-abusive, to fellow cast, crew, directors and higher-ups. Some of those careers have suffered, or met their just desserts. A majority, not in the slightest. Who's going to adjudicate those cases? And regarding the pool of "talented people" who aren't "garbage human beings" (a phrase I've never applied to anyone, since everyone has a backstory and a humanity, even those deemed unpleasant – you know, WICKED): When it costs 7-8 digits to put up a Broadway show, the tower of investor names above the title aren't going to take a time-out to mull over whether they want the one with 10 Tonys or the one someone-or-other said was nice. No lead producer(s) would even gain access to those names and their 8-digit millions in the first place without pre-packaging the one with 10 Tonys. Hopefully, abusive people will increasingly be marginalized, with new awareness and responsibility on all the many sides. But I wouldn't count on it, most certainly not in the next 5-10 years, as all the good intentions and Broadway social justice warriors of all stripes bump into this one little powerful guy whose temporary absence has allowed them to flower in the first place: a little guy named Ticket Sales. |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:55 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Who? - reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| "Two other considerations: It isn't just power-people. A number of stars in various media (inc. theatre) are nightmare-abusive, to fellow cast, crew, directors and higher-ups. " But I would say that, in most cases, any stars who act that way are -- or, at least perceive themselves to be -- power-people themselves. |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:39 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Who? - Michael_Portantiere 09:55 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I would say in general there are people who act like that and people who are demanding without any reason. We can't cure that. But it should not obscure that there are situations in which power is real (and that can certainly include some "stars") and used in an unacceptable way. That needs to be the focus. | |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:40 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Who? - reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| All true, and also why our industry is toxic and rewards toxicity. Also why many folks are questioning whether they want to return to this business once live theater resumes. Bad behavior is rewarded and people are treated like garbage. | |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:06 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Who? - reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| Well, the only thing that will really work is for people to stop employing/working with people who are abusive. If a director exhibits abusive behavior, producers and theatres need to stop hiring him/her. If it's a producer, go get your financing elsewhere or decline to work with projects originating there. My whole point here is that there are people that "everyone knows" are nightmares. But if there were consequences for their behavior (ie: work dries up), those people will either go away and be replaced by people who are, hopefully, not nightmares or they will change their behavior. Being abusive is not in any way a prerequisite for being talented or even being a genius. And continually making excuses and ignoring abusive behavior doesn't affect the genius, and will encourage the abuse. The greater issue at the moment is retaliation. We need to figure out how to protect people who are brave enough to come forward and speak about their experiences with such people. |
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| re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:12 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - JereNYC 11:08 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| The answer is simple (you have to change the culture) but the execution is hard. The retaliation is itself a component of the architecture of abuse. | |
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| It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: dramedy 02:10 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I’m sure it happens in financial and business world also and probably in hospitals and other locations. The government jobs are pretty strict on what is allowable, but even a bully in management can take years to get removed. | |
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| re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:37 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It’s not limited to entertainment industry - dramedy 02:10 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| it happens everywhere but the standards are different and it is less likely in either a large employer or a union employer (such as hospitals, for instance). Rudin's office is neither. (Another industry that is a close runner-up is restaurants, for much the same reasons.) | |
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| re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:56 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry - ryhog 04:37 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| My experience is that it happens all over. From 1987 through 2018, I worked for a paper company. I loved what I did and it was easily the best job I ever had, but things weren't always perfect. When I started, my supervisor had the title of office manager. However, the guy in charge of my division was company vice-president. He wasn't a bully and was never physically or verbally abusive, but, nevertheless, I would describe him as a racist pig, a jerk, and an incorrigible liar. Our group consisted of about 15 office workers (sales, customer service, clerical -- 13 white and 2 Asian) and about 10 factory/warehouse workers (ran machines, picked orders, loaded trucks -- all African-American). The boss, although he never used the n-word in my presence, routinely referred to black employees as "the colored" or used other degrading racial names. My two Asian co-workers did the billing and were deathly afraid of him. He treated them as indentured servants. Although salaried, they put in 12-hour days Monday through Friday, plus 6 hours on Saturday and never received any monetary compensation for the extra hours. There was an office bully in my division, who was impossible to work with. He was demanding, belittling, and rude. When I went to my supervisor about him, I was told "Well, the owner likes him. He's great at cold calling and knows how to close a deal. You'll have to get along with him." Eventually he was transferred to the California office, where he harassed the hell out of my younger brother. Because there were so many complaints about him, he was moved from department to department for years. I think he was finally fired in around 2005. |
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| re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:57 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It’s not limited to entertainment industry - dramedy 02:10 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| It's not limited to entertainment, but entertainment is the industry that I work and have been verbally and emotionally abused in, so that's the one that I care about. | |
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