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| Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 10:30 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: "The digital season" - jjbkvm 05:57 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Absolutely no one is claiming that it's the same as, or equal to, an in-person theatrical experience. No one. | |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:49 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you wanna build a straw man? - MockingbirdGirl 10:30 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| "Absolutely no one is claiming that it's the same as, or equal to, an in-person theatrical experience. No one." Thank you. I really HATE straw man arguments -- and what I hate most about them is that the person who makes such an argument assumes the people who hear it will be stupid enough not to realize it is, in fact, a straw man argument. Someone tried this on me recently, and let's just say I did not react well, to put it mildly. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 08:12 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:11 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Michael_Portantiere 06:49 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| In general, I am with you on this but: What about when the argument labeled as "straw man" isn't straw at all? Because as I note below, Dramedy seems to be saying that he finds watching theatre on his gigantic TV to be not only the same as an in-person theatrical experience but actually better. And Dramedy is not "no one." This reminds me of a familiar exchange I used to have with my father when I was in high school and I wanted to stay out half the night with my friends. "Everyone's doing it," I would argue, to which he would respond, "No, you are not doing it, and you are a part of everyone, so what you say is incorrect." Ah, adolescence. :-) |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:00 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - ryhog 08:11 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| Yes, sometimes people call "straw man" because it lets them off the hook of questioning their own point of view; far easier to presume that the other person is being conniving and stupid than to consider that they're being genuine and reflective. | |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:41 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Singapore/Fling 09:00 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| ***Yes, sometimes people call "straw man" because it lets them off the hook of questioning their own point of view; far easier to presume that the other person is being conniving and stupid than to consider that they're being genuine and reflective.**** I'm sure some people sometimes do that, but as far as I'm concerned, the rules are clear as to what constitutes (or not) a straw man argument, and those rules are not a matter of opinion. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:40 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Michael_Portantiere 09:41 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| We might agree that the rules are not a matter of opinion, but we don't agree that people aren't prey to being righteously self-convinced that someone else has broken those rules. I've seen people lose their minds over what they are convinced is a straw man argument when they're completely in the wrong. But then, they were convinced that other folks like myself were completely in the wrong. That's because ultimately, it is all about perception and how we choose to understand another person, insisting on ideas of absolute fact while being hopelessly lost in objective opinion. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:14 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Singapore/Fling 10:40 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| We're getting into semantics here. Again, the definition of a straw man argument or fallacy is clear. So no matter how strongly someone is convinced that someone else's position is a straw man fallacy, one should be able to objectively examine the argument and decide whether or not that's true. If I were to say "I think we should have universal health care in the U.S." and someone else were to respond, "Sorry, I don't believe the government should give every citizen everything they want for free," that would be clearly be a straw man argument, because I never said that. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:31 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Michael_Portantiere 12:14 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| "one should be able to objectively examine the argument and decide whether or not that's true." 100% agree, but I have found that when people bust out "Straw Man!" as their response, it's often because they don't want to examine the argument. In this thread alone, straw man was tossed out with the insistence that no one was talking about replacing live theater with streamed theater, even though someone had totally written how excited they were to replace live theater with streaming theater. And that's just the low hanging fruit, lol. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:29 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Singapore/Fling 12:31 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| "In this thread alone, straw man was tossed out with the insistence that no one was talking about replacing live theater with streamed theater, even though someone had totally written how excited they were to replace live theater with streaming theater." But maybe the people who cried "straw man" didn't read that particular, highly unusual comment. I think it's fair to say that the VAST majority of people don't feel that streaming theater should REPLACE live theater, so it would be a straw man argument to insist that those people DO feel that way. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:51 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Michael_Portantiere 12:29 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| Leaving aside the use and misuse of the rhetorical device, the original post by MBG was absolute in its terms, and absolutism around here is not unfamiliar even though it is almost never accurate. The OP was making its point by insisting (as fact) that there were no dissenters (highly unusual or not). I'd add that, although what Dramedy said is indeed highly unusual and surprising in this precinct, it is certainly not true that the vast majority of people overall elevate live theatre above something they can watch from their couch (ditto, of course, even for going to a movie theatre). This is one reason I feel so strongly about streaming being an unhealthy thing for the theatre. It vitiates the #1 selling point live theatre has. | |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:31 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - ryhog 01:51 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| "I'd add that, although what Dramedy said is indeed highly unusual and surprising in this precinct, it is certainly not true that the vast majority of people overall elevate live theatre above something they can watch from their couch (ditto, of course, even for going to a movie theatre). " If you don't think that the vast majority of people who post here certainly do feel exactly that way, then I can only say that I strongly disagree with you. We are, of course, NOT discussing the general population, so your use of the word "overall" is odd in this context. |
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| re: Do you wanna build a straw man? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:00 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you wanna build a straw man? - Michael_Portantiere 03:31 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| I read "[a]bsolutely no one" in MBG's post literally. Reading it your way (and assuming MBG had not read what Dramedy wrote), then we are in agreement. | |
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| Did you miss what Dramedy wrote a few minutes before you? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:36 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you wanna build a straw man? - MockingbirdGirl 10:30 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| It surprised me (and kinda saddened me) but Dramedy is not a scarecrow. :-) I want my live theatre back, with all its warts. |
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| It's not either/or. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:57 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Did you miss what Dramedy wrote a few minutes before you? - ryhog 10:36 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Right, but we can have both. In the same way that a cast album does not replace live theater but preserves a record of it, a filmed/streamed theater piece does not replace live theater but preserves a record of it. And particularly as a teacher - but also as a fan - I'm grateful that I can watch and re-watch iconic productions and performances. And when we look at the environmental and practical costs of domestic and international travel, I'm grateful for any chance I can have to watch a production from the UK or the Netherlands or the West Coast from my living room in New York (with my 55 inch TV, but also sometimes on my laptop). Just like gender, this isn't a binary. |
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| In this post, I was not suggesting it was. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:04 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: It's not either/or. - Singapore/Fling 02:57 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| Dramedy was extolling the virtues of watching at home vs. theatre and sounded (I hope he comes to his senses :-) ) like he was happy with the current state of affairs. All I said in my post is that I am eager to get back in my cramped seat for live performances. In other threads in the past, I have argued that it should be binary, because I think this filming thing is a bad and unhealthy idea for the theatre in the long term. But that's not what this thread is about and I don't really want to hijack it to make it about that. LOL |
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| That's good, because it isn't ;-P | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:10 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: In this post, I was not suggesting it was. - ryhog 04:04 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I mean, the whole point of a message board is that it's a space for conversation, so I don't think a thread can really be highjacked by allowing it to lead to conversation. And whether or not you were hitting upon that in this specific thread, we know this to be your point of view, so that is present in what you write. In dramedy's case, I'm kind of okay with him not going back to the theater, lol, because the audience members that *I* can't stand are the ones who get annoyed at other audience members and make a fuss that is even more distracting. I can ignore someone's rustling with candy, but I have a harder time ignoring the person who keeps glaring at the person with candy. |
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| re: That's good, because it isn't ;-P | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:38 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: That's good, because it isn't ;-P - Singapore/Fling 04:10 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I can ignore both. Meditation helps, although not recommended except during scene changes. :-) | |
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| re: That's good, because it isn't ;-P | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:41 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: That's good, because it isn't ;-P - ryhog 04:38 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I mean, some shows I just take a nap for a bit. | |
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| The wizard refused to give me a brain | |
| Posted by: dramedy 02:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Did you miss what Dramedy wrote a few minutes before you? - ryhog 10:36 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Probably no surprise to this group of posters. | |
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| re: The wizard refused to give me a brain | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:42 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: The wizard refused to give me a brain - dramedy 02:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I guess you had to buy it at the same place you got that 800 inch TV you are so proud of nowadays. | |
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| It’s 799 inch. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 03:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The wizard refused to give me a brain - ryhog 02:42 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| Wouldn’t you be proud to upgrade from a 32inch CRT from 2004. It does make watching theater a lot more enjoyable than a laptop for pic and sound. | |
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| re: It’s 799 inch. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:33 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: It’s 799 inch. - dramedy 03:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| are you angry about the inch? | |
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