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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:33 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:27 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: Sondheim's Broadway career - ablankpage 04:05 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| It's not just you, it seems to be the common default to not count previews. I gotta say I just don't understand and I disagree. A preview is a performance on broadway, in front of a paying audience who usually paid close to or full price (and it's likely the only time most of those people will see that production - a preview ticket doesn't come with a "come back once we open and see how far we've come!" free ticket), and the producers make money on it just the same as after opening. Opening means after the reviews, but for a long time now shows have been "frozen" at least a week before opening... so if they only do a few weeks (or less) of previews, often the preview is almost the same as post-opening. A performance for a paying audience is just that, and should count as that. To most ticket buyers, i believe, if the show is running - it is open. If they can buy a ticket, it is a valid performance they paid for, and that counts. They don't advertise as "come watch us perform an unfinished show, be a test audience for a new broadway show!" they advertise as "performances start (month) (day)". So I can't resist but add them, even though for most shows it makes only a tiny difference in run length... but for some, bigger. Forum - add 8 ACW - add 12 (21 looks somewhat better than 12) Company - add 7 Follies - add 12 ALNM - add 12 Pacific Overtures - add 13 (making the run 204, which definitely looks better than 193!) Side By Side - add 6 Sweeney Todd - add 19... a notable amount Sunday in the Park - add 35!! (that is a LOT ... bring it to surely those count for the 25-30,000+ people who saw the show in those first 35 performances?) ITW - add 43!! (1 shy of Merrily... why not count it? Bringing the run to 808 which definitely looks better) Passion - add 52!!!!! (Brings the run to 332, which looks better than 280, because it is. And 30-50k ticket buyers surely assume what they saw was a performance of the broadway show Passion) And for what it's worth, also on Broadway: The Frogs: 92 performances + 34 previews = 126 Putting It Together: 101 + 22 = 123 Also, regarding the Jake G. Sunday in the Park revival... let the record show, it didn't "narrowly recoup in the final week", it was planned exactly that way, the run long enough to recoup (which is VERY short for recouping a musical, which means the mix of Jake in a musical and it being this musical was a winner), because he couldn't do a longer run with his schedule. It could have run much longer had Jake been available, or perhaps had the producers thought it was worth the risk/investment to try to replace him. Revival runs must count for something too... don't they count toward the popularity of a show, and don't the original investor still get a share? I could be wrong, I don't actually know how that works. The fact that most of his shows have been revived on Broadway at least once, some twice, and that's not counting notable London revivals, and notable off-broadway revivals (like Pacific Overtures twice, Merrily twice, Into the Woods twice, Passion) (let alone things like the Sondheim celebration at the Kennedy center, which I know have to do more with respect and prestige than popularity -- but you don't spend millions on a whole special season of 6 musicals, if you don't think a big paying audience will come for them) But... Forum 98 revival: 715 + 35 Forum 1972 revival: 156 + 3 (but wasn't this a strictly limited run, or did it close early because of Phil Silvers health? I can't recall) ALNM 2009 revival: 425 + 20 Company 1995 revival: 68 + 43 (limited run) Company 2006 revival: 246 + 34 Company 2020 revival: closed for covid, never opened Sweeney Todd 1989 revival: 188 + 47 Sweeney Todd 2006 revival: 349 + 35 Follies 2001 revival: 117 + 31 (limited run) Follies 2011 revival: 152 + 38 Sunday 2008 revival: 149 + 32 Sunday 2017 revival: 61 + 11 (but a sold out run, pre-scheduled as must close limited run) Into the Woods 2002 revival: 279 + 18 Pacific Overtures 2004 revival: 69 + 24 (limited run) Assassins 2004 broadway "revival": 101 + 26 (limited run, closed for several reasons, lack of packed houses not being one) |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: ablankpage 08:12 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - Chazwaza 01:27 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| Yeah, I hear you. I’m never quite sure what to do with previews. When a show closes it’s always noted it played x performances with x previews, so obviously the industry doesn’t count them (nor does IBDB). But to the actors and the audience they’re a performance like any other. One of the great inconsistencies. I didn’t even notice the—even by today’s standards—long preview periods for the Lapine musicals. I know Sunday in the Park only had one act off-Broadway and Passion opened cold on Broadway, but Into The Woods had an out of town. It’s surprising they needed 43 previews to work it out. Also, what I meant by the Jake/Sunday was they were really banking on him not missing any performances, they purposely didn’t invite awards groups, they couldn’t have weathered lagging ticket sales, etc. Those margins were razor-thin and there was no room for error. To me that feels like a narrow recoupment, as opposed to a show that readily recoups well before the run ends. |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Last Edit: writerkev 10:02 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: writerkev 10:01 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - ablankpage 08:12 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| To me, it makes sense that the official count is only the number of performances post-opening. Sometimes that number is an indication of the effect of reviews. Many shows have pushed off their preview periods as long as possible to avoid reviews. You have shows like “Nick and Nora” and too many others to cite that have two months of previews, then they close a week after bad reviews. And shows that close on opening night should clearly be known to have had a single “real” performance, not the six weeks of previews. Previews are previews, for whatever reason the production deems them so. The count starts after opening. | |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:38 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - writerkev 10:01 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| I absolutely disagree. If "previews are previews" and don't count, then tickets should be sold at half-price at most. Previews are full price, full performances, and fully count. Reviews also aren't influential the way they were... maybe performances should only count based on how long the show's marketing campaign has been out there and might have had effect... or when word of mouth can start, so say after week 2 of previews? I mean... it's silly. Secret Garden changed the show after opening, does that mean the previews and weeks before new changes went in invalidate those performances and their run doesn't start until the show is actually frozen for the last time? If we are counting how many performances a show had on broadway, it starts at the first performance on broadway, because that is the first performance on broadway. |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: writerkev 03:12 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - Chazwaza 10:38 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| That’s a fine opinion, but it’s not the way it’s done. | |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:50 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - writerkev 03:12 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| Be that as it may, that is confounding and without logic or relevance for the point of the stat in the first place. | |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: writerkev 03:31 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - Chazwaza 02:50 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I tried to offer some logic above. I understand you don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean there is no logic. | |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:44 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - writerkev 03:31 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I grant that, but I don't think the logic is useful or applicable especially for a conversation or documentation of the actual length of a broadway production's run. | |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 11:28 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - Chazwaza 10:38 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| I'm with you. It's not a rehearsal, it's a performance. On Broadway. Most of the audience will only see one performance. They won't know that a song they hear may be dropped in a week. Or that a performer may be replaced. Or that next year a mostly new group of performers will be performing this same show on this stage. | |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:16 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:14 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - Billhaven 11:28 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| Exactly. And you mentioned major changes... the vast majority of shows preview periods don't have changes anywhere near as notable as a dropped or replaced song or a cut role or replaced performer. The show is largely the same... in middle cases, dialogue and lyrics will change, scenes may be moved around or cut, the design elements and cues will change or improv, some staging may change, buttons of songs or scenes might change or come to being... timing of acting and performance depth will change. But most shows, especially in the last 20 years, don't really change THAT notably during previews. Most shows have 3 weeks of previews, if i recall, and 1 whole week of that is after the show is frozen. Certainly some new shows have a lot of growing pains and will make big changes or make changes often during previews... and of course, how previews work in the last 20 years isn't that relevant to how they worked in the decades prior when Sondheim's show premiered. But I still really think especially for his shows in the 80s and 90s, the previews counted 100% as a performance of the musical on Broadway that audiences paid full or near-full prices for, and especially doing 30-55 previews... I mean that's almost half the run of most Roundabout shows! Come on. |
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| re: Sondheim's Broadway career | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:43 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sondheim's Broadway career - ablankpage 08:12 am EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| "When a show closes it’s always noted it played x performances with x previews, so obviously the industry doesn’t count them (nor does IBDB). But to the actors and the audience they’re a performance like any other. One of the great inconsistencies." Again, this dates from back in the day, when Broadway shows had VERY few previews, AND the ticket prices for preview performances were significantly lower. As the years went by, "preview" periods began to get longer and longer, and the ticket discounts disappeared. As a result, there gradually came to be less and less difference -- some would say, no difference -- between previews and regular performances. That said, the difference in total number of performances, whether or not previews are included, is still relatively small in most cases. But of course, there are major exceptions -- like (shudder!) SPIDER MAN. |
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