Threaded Order Chronological Order
| ^ This Is 100% the Truth of Our Toxic Industry | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re For good or ill - NewtonUK 01:57 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| once again, we are given a glimpse into how the people who fund and run the theater industry actually regard all of the workers they employ. For those who have been following this months-long conversation, there's a straight line from (and I am paraphrasing) "Actors don't need two days off a week, they should be happy to work", to "Workers should accept permanent pay cuts even while the executive class takes home millions", to "You can drop a computer on your employee as long as you don't drop the N word while you're doing it, that's not assault, just bad behavior". And sadly, NewtonUK is right. No one is going to fire Scott Rudin, and audiences won't let this stop them from seeing Hugh Jackman in "The Music Man" because arts industry workers are disposable, but by God, if you take away their water bottles they're going to rant and rave about what a monster you are. |
|
| reply to this message |
| Percentages | |
| Posted by: reed23 04:54 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: ^ This Is 100% the Truth of Our Toxic Industry - Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| "...a glimpse into how the people who fund and run the theater industry actually regard all of the workers they employ." That's a bit of a generalization, extrapolating and applying Rudin's case to everyone who funds and runs "the theatre industry." Maybe I was some lucky exception, but none of the producers on or off Broadway with and for whom I worked over the many years remotely fit your description. I did bump into the occasional habitually unpleasant person – but they weren't producers. I certainly remember being treated poorly, unfairly, and/or insensitively by some people along the way – but they were fellow Equity members, frequently those with some extra power over the casts (stage managers and dance captains, for instance.) But investors and producers? Never. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: Percentages | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:36 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Percentages - reed23 04:54 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Fair, and the comment you quoted was in reference to previous posts from the person I was responding to, not Rudin. Unfortunately, the people who are loud and cruel do seem to suck up a lot of the air and command a lot of space in our industry, so it can be easy to lose track of the folks who are decent. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago | |
| Last Edit: dramedy 03:28 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: dramedy 03:27 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: ^ This Is 100% the Truth of Our Toxic Industry - Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| It wasn’t dismissing rudin. But what behavior would lead to people not buying tickets—because that is the bottom line. Would protests out front work—I doubt it. It didn’t close west side story for dancer behaving badly. Investors will still invest in rudin projects as long as they make money—so it won’t stop there. I doubt several court cases (civil at least) would stop him. Criminal case—probably wouldn’t get a conviction on his behavior so far—maybe assault and battery which wouldn’t get jail time. There will always be a steady stream of hungry assistants putting up with it looking for next break to move on. To be honest, I wouldn’t stop buying tickets for his shows based on the reports. I didn’t buy music man because i don’t need to see another revival at outrageous prices for a bad seat—not because of rudin. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago | |
| Posted by: StageLover 08:50 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago - dramedy 03:27 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| I'm curious, Dramedy. How low does Rudin have to publicly go before you're put off? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 06:45 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:35 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago - dramedy 03:27 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| I wasn't calling you out for the water bottle post, but more the people who responded only to that part and not to the rest. And yeah, I think you're telling the truth in this post. In the last few years, I've learned about the truly terrible and dehumanizing practices of one of my favorite Broadway directors, someone I have admired for nearly 30 years, and I'm finding it very hard to reconcile that information with how much I still love his shows. It's tough, and there aren't necessarily easy answers, but a lot of folks don't even want to entertain the conversation, because they just want to enjoy show and not think about it. (In the same way that I want to enjoy Drag Race and not think about the heinous contract everyone signs to be on the show.) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: Amiens 07:53 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Singapore/Fling 06:35 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Singapore/Fling, I admire your passion on this topic and agree with your points. But I note that you and no one else here (except for Billhaven's mention of Gregory Boyd) is naming any of the long-time and apparently well-known current offenders other than Rudin. You alluded to an abusive director above, guilty of "truly terrible and dehumanizing practices" but do you or others here think that actually naming current offenders is inappropriate on an anonymous chat board? The caution in naming names, shows what a complicated situation this is and how difficult it is to progress. Please know, I do understand if posters don't want to be more forthcoming. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 10:18 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:12 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Amiens 07:53 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| A few days ago, someone else posted that question of who would name names in the current culture, and I almost dropped a name then, but I didn't. And I didn't for the simple reason that the New York theater world is small. I'm fairly anonymous on this site, and I think anything I've posted that would identify me is no longer archived (and would taker a lot of reading to parse a few tidbits here and there); and I doubt that anyone here would readily know who I am, because I've worked in smaller institutions in behind the scenes roles; and I'm not even sure that I want to go back to working in theater once Quarantine lifts... but still, l don't want to take the risk, because what if? It's not so much for fear of the person I'd be naming as it is caring for my relationships to the people who told me these stories, because they might hire me for jobs in the future, or recommend me to someone who might hire me, and I'm not going to risk that, especially when the response to Rudin is a collective shrug. It's frustrating, and I feel powerless and am aware that I'm participating in a system that disgusts me, but there are good parts of it, too, and I like being employed. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:16 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Singapore/Fling 10:12 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Years ago (probably around 1998 through 2010 for sure) whenever I was in a rush line for a Broadway show, there would always be at least one or two people in line with me who were posters on ATC. Sometimes just to make the hours pass, we would try to guess each other's screen name just by talking about theatre. You would be surprised how often total strangers would be able to guess correctly. Once (probably Mar., 2015) I was seated in the St. James theater for an early preview of Something Rotten!. It was during that period when they were offering tickets for around $14. Anyway I began to chat with the young lady sitting next to me -- she was probably in her 20's. Eventually she told me she was an avid ATC lurker and an occasional poster. After about 10 minutes or so of mutual conversation, she correctly told me my screen name -- she said I spoke just the way I posted. It didn't alarm me because it was all in fun. However, when I tried to guess her screen name, she would not confirm or deny my guesses -- she had a real poker face. Of course, that incident was over 6 years ago. In recent years when I have been in various Broadway rush lines, people I chat with usually know little or nothing about this message board, let alone are active posters. Just saying. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:45 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Wasn't calling you out :-) - BroadwayTonyJ 11:16 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Almost certainly you're correct that it's zero risk, but an abundance of caution when it comes to the internet has rarely steered people wrong. :-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:46 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Singapore/Fling 06:35 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| The same thing goes for James Levine. CAN we enjoy listening to his art without judging him personally? Some people can, some can't. And/or you might be able to do that with some people but not others. What I don't like is when people decide to start judging US outright for the way we decide to handle this on our own. I've seen a lot of shaming posts on opera sites for people who would rather talk about the strength of Levine's career and not deal with the subject of the abusive behaviors. I don't think one person gets to decide for all of us. We all have to come to our own reasoning about things like this. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:14 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Chromolume 07:46 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| I have a hard time watching Levine conduct the overtures on the Met Live videos, especially when he makes that face (you know the face). I'm not going to discount the whole opera over him, but I really would love to see the Met re-edit some of those videos so I don't have to look at him. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:21 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Singapore/Fling 10:14 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Well, when I'm watching TV but don't like the image on the screen, I just look away. :-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Wasn't calling you out :-) | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:51 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Wasn't calling you out :-) - Chromolume 11:21 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| And I do, or I fast forward to the curtain rising, which solves the problem but deprives me of the overture. But... it'd be nice not to be in the position where someone we now know as a perpetrator in credible allegations of sexual harassment and abuse wasn't just popping up on my TV screen without at least fair warning. I'm curious to see what will happen with films featuring Kevin Spacey. There are some performances of his that I think are iconic and I'll still watch the film ("Usual Suspects", "L.A. Confidential"), but "Baby Driver" was hard to watch even before the allegations came out (though I'd already heard rumors and one first-hand account of Spacey's behavior). I think some good movies are going to fade into oblivion because people just don't want to watch him. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:16 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago - dramedy 03:27 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| But see, as i also said in the other thread, the water bottle "joke" isn't funny anymore, not after the new Georgia voting laws. Something that seemed like an inconvenience (and a nod to a form of 'audience behavior" courtesy) has now become something much stupider and more pernicious. It may seem like a silly thing to be denied bottled water at a show, but would you rather not have it while waiting on a very long line in the heat? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Really | |
| Last Edit: dramedy 04:27 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:26 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago - Chromolume 04:16 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Equating water bottles in theater to voting lines? That’s just unbelievable. You must have little humor in your life and not all jokes please everyone. But to censor on that bases is going too far in my opinion. What is criminal is having to wait in line for hours to vote not the restriction on water distribution by political parties and candidates. I wouldn’t vote if it took over 30 minutes. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: StageLover 09:04 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Really - dramedy 04:26 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| "I wouldn’t vote if it took over 30 minutes." Jesus... |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:08 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - StageLover 09:04 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
|
|
|
| Yup. As I said, that's exactly why the republicans are trying to pass laws like this - to make it as inconvenient to vote as possible, so people will give up and not vote. Particularly in districts that are heavily democratic and/or racially diverse. The R's are counting on more folks like Dramedy. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:24 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Really - dramedy 04:26 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| What is criminal is having to wait in line for hours to vote not the restriction on water distribution by political parties and candidates. Well, it's insult added to injury. To have to stand in the long lines and ALSO be told you can't have water or food during the long wait. I wouldn’t vote if it took over 30 minutes. That's the point. That's EXACTLY what they want you to say. The less people that vote, the more the R's feel they can win. You'd play right into their hands. Think about it. Equating water bottles in theater to voting lines? That’s just unbelievable. You must have little humor in your life. Come on. You've known me for years out here. I really resent that. You can disagree with me, but the attack is totally unwarranted. I stand by my point. If a state can "outlaw" water in that way, having a theatre producer do something similar is perhaps not something so much to joke at any more. But I'm SO glad you can laugh at it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:10 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - Chromolume 07:24 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Last week the Georgia governor was interviewed on either CNN or MSNBC. He stated that the law is designed to prevent large political groups or organizations from setting up tents near the voting lines and then harassing the opposition (which most likely is made up of white supremacists and far right bigots). He further stated that if an individual in line needed water or food, the law would not prevent a friend or family member from bringing it to him. I don't believe there was any discussion afterward suggesting that the governor was not telling the truth. Of course, there is a lot more to the law than just the part about food and water. There is no doubt that the Georgia legislature and governor want to make it harder for minorities to vote. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:17 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - BroadwayTonyJ 09:10 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| Legal experts who have been studying the law believe that the Governor is mistaken (or is being misleading), and that the law, at best, would allow for an umanned table to be set up with freely available water. This is one of the problems with these laws being written so quickly, often from language created by special interest groups who have an interest in maximizing their political gain. (Not sure if that was the case here, but it's a common practice.) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:43 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - Singapore/Fling 10:17 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| I think it's obvious that the law was designed to thwart groups like BLM, which I imagine is legal. If the law actually goes into effect, CNN and MSNBC will have reporters and cameras on the scene to either prevent or record any individual with food and water being stopped. I'm sure the law will be appealed to a higher court. The governor's statement is on the record. I would assume that lawyers for the appeal would quote his exact words in a courtroom. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:58 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - BroadwayTonyJ 10:43 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| What matters in the courts is how the law is written and legally interpreted, not what the Governor is saying in the face of serious opposition from major corporations. His statements might be used to alter legislation going forward, but that does not change what the law says or influence how it is interpreted. CNN and MSNBC might take their cameras down there, but they have no legal power and they will not change the way the law is enforced. And the highest court that the case can go to is politically aligned with the people who wrote this legislation in the first place, and I see no reason to expect that a court will strike this law down. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Posted by: larry13 09:32 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - BroadwayTonyJ 09:10 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| "He stated that if an individual in line needed water or food, the law would not prevent a friend or family member from bringing it to him." Maybe the individual in line doesn't have a friend or family member to bring him the water or food, whether because these others are also in line or for whatever reason, including that there may not be any friends or family members. And how would it be policed to make sure that the person bringing the sustenance is a friend or family member? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Really | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 10:33 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:30 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - larry13 09:32 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| The governor just said that individuals (but not groups) who bring people in line food or water would not be stopped. The way he explained it is that the law is designed to prevent groups from interacting with people in line to vote. I'm not defending the governor, and I don't like the law. However, I think it's important that we don't post misinformation about it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| The Governor's statement is misinformation | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 12:08 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:07 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Really - BroadwayTonyJ 10:30 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| The Governor is wrong about the law. It expressly forbids individuals from bringing food or water. It only allows for election officials to set up tables, which presumably could have water on them. This is the relevant section of the law, emphasis mine: "(a) No person shall solicit votes in any manner or by any means or method, nor shall any person distribute or display any campaign material, nor shall any person give, offer to give, or participate in the giving of any money or gifts, including, but not limited to, food and drink, to an elector, nor shall any person solicit signatures for any petition, nor shall any person, other than election officials discharging their duties, establish or set up any tables or booths on any day in which ballots are being cast (1) Within 150 feet of the outer edge of any building within which a polling place is" |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The Governor's statement is misinformation | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:25 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: The Governor's statement is misinformation - Singapore/Fling 12:07 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
|
|
|
| You're right. What he said in the interview now sounds like a lame excuse to me. He should have vetoed the bill and told the legislature to rewrite the food and drink clause so that it states what he is telling journalists on TV. The clause seems to be defining food and drink as some sort of bribe. Voters who wait in line simply want to have a drink of water or a snack because they're thirsty or hungry after waiting for hours. I think what the governor was saying in the interview was that this law does not apply to a friend or family member giving someone a bottle of water. However, he did specifically mention BLM. The law's reference to food and drink is ridiculous. The simple way to avoid all this nonsense and ridiculous laws is to have enough polling places to avoid long lines and to have a national standard on mail-in voting, which has been done for years in states like Colorado without any problems with fraud. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The Governor's statement is misinformation | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:55 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The Governor's statement is misinformation - BroadwayTonyJ 05:25 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
|
|
|
| Well, that would be the way to do if they actually *wanted* everybody to be able to vote... | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The Governor's statement is misinformation | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:30 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The Governor's statement is misinformation - Singapore/Fling 05:55 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
|
|
|
| Plus, we all know the "fraud" thing is in fact, in itself, fraud. And I think they know that too, but they won't let go of the excuse. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:01 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: I started the water bottle as a joke a few days ago - dramedy 03:27 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| see what I wrote below. Please stop justifying the behavior based on what people will and won't do in spite of it. Rudin would definitely sit up and listen if confronted with sanctions under the beefed up workplace laws. Punitive damages serve a purpose as do other sanctions. So does the end of confidentiality and attorneys fees. And there is zero doubt that had there been a complaint he would have been convicted of assault (no such thing as battery in NY) and harassment. Would he go to the pokey? Most likely not, unless he was subsequently held in contempt of court, but a conviction is a conviction and (as I think I said elsewhere) investors may not care about conduct but they abhor controversy. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Along with "Cancel," "Toxic" should be dropped from our current vocabulary | |
| Posted by: Jax 03:15 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: ^ This Is 100% the Truth of Our Toxic Industry - Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| It's become a cliche from bleeding hearts who want to throw a blanket condemnation on everything. So the theatre is "toxic?" Compared to what? Coal mining? Policing? Janitorial work? There are tons of people who would kill to be in the theatre, have glamour jobs, expense accounts, the like. Which is part of why there is so much competition to get into the theatre and get those jobs. Which is why petty tyrants like Scott Rudin can flourish....they're holding the bag of candy. The way to bring about better behavior by bosses in entertainment -- a HUGE project, sort of like asking the King to curtsy to his subjects -- is not by branding the whole culture "toxic." It's just more empty talk, pure cant |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Let's also drop excusing toxicity in one workplace because another workplace has it worse - they're all examples of the same problem | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:41 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Along with "Cancel," "Toxic" should be dropped from our current vocabulary - Jax 03:15 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| And that problem is late stage Capitalism. I think you put it perfectly when you compare entertainment bosses to kings and the employees of those bosses to the king's subjects.You make it even more perfect when you say that to be treated with respect by your boss would be as equally difficult as a King (or Queen) to genuflect to the common people who they regard as below them. And that situation, which is rampant across global capitalism, is, I'll use the word again, Toxic. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Along with "Cancel," "Toxic" should be dropped from our current vocabulary | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:50 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Along with "Cancel," "Toxic" should be dropped from our current vocabulary - Jax 03:15 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
|
|
|
| When I read your subject line, I thought maybe you had a point, and then I opened your post and discovered that you undercut that by spewing your own brand of toxicity. Toxicity - or whatever you want to call it - is not something justifiable by comparison. Is it ok that we have asbestos in office walls because it does not cause as much pain and suffering as what miners breathe in coal mines? Wanna know what's toxic? Excusing Rudin's behavior because people want to "be in the theatre." That's what let's Rudin's behavior flourish. Now to your point, yes all of this labeling and all of these petitions etc etc etc are not going to bring about change. But they do highlight the behavior and from that we get new and better laws to combat the evils of workplace bullying and worse. We now have stronger laws, that provide both added encouragement to complain and compensation for doing so (which also serve as an added deterrent to ogres) and mechanisms to prevent the chilling and silencing of complaints. (The voiding of confidentiality agreements in relation to purposeful communication is a big deal.) So yes let's rise above the labels, but let's stop with the fucking apologies. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.101917 seconds.