Threaded Order Chronological Order
| 27 down to 14, terrible cost cutting in my opinion | |
| Last Edit: Leon_W 12:22 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| Posted by: Leon_W 12:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: London's PHANTOM OF THE OPERA Orchestra Will Be Reduced Upon Reopening - pecansforall 11:33 am EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| It seems that they will replace the 13 lost musicians with synthesized music of some kind. I bet if it wasn’t for the unions the rest of the people would be gone from the pit too. How many did we have on Broadway I wonder? | |
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| Musicals are so over amplified | |
| Posted by: dramedy 01:10 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: 27 down to 14, terrible cost cutting in my opinion - Leon_W 12:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| It’s not as though the power of multiple instruments are needed anymore. Does each instrument have a microphone or is it one mic for whole orchestra. | |
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| re: Musicals are so over amplified | |
| Posted by: sf 09:01 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Musicals are so over amplified - dramedy 01:10 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| It's not just about power. There's a tone you get from a larger string section, for example, that you cannot replicate simply by amplifying a single violin. You also cannot entirely replicate it by using some kind of digital enhancement system. It's not the first time Mackintosh has done this. In the Miss Saigon revival, which (in the UK) cut the orchestra down to 16, the difference from the original was noticeable, and it was *not* an improvement. | |
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| re: Musicals are so over amplified | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:34 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Musicals are so over amplified - dramedy 01:10 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| One mic for the whole orchestra would be useless in any scenario. At very least, you'd want to mic each section. But yes, nowadays it's standard for every player to be miked. | |
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| re: Musicals are so over amplified | |
| Posted by: Leon_W 01:13 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Musicals are so over amplified - dramedy 01:10 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Think about how amazing the huge orchestra at the more recent Broadway mounting of Sunset Boulevard was, then tell me that a larger orchestra doesn’t matter! | |
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| I didn’t notice | |
| Posted by: dramedy 01:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Musicals are so over amplified - Leon_W 01:13 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| And yes, I saw the revival and loved it. And yes, I played violin from 5th through 10th grade. But broadway is so amplified it doesn’t matter. I can tell the difference at symphony and ballet where it isn’t amplified. | |
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| re: I didn’t notice | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:26 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I didn’t notice - dramedy 01:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Close miking does have its advantages though. It makes softer instruments balance easier, making more combination of sounds possible. The soft dynamic of the lowest range of the flute, for instance, would be able to be featured better over textures that normally would cancel it out. Acoustic guitar comes though much better in balance with the rest of the rhythm section. Harp can be more dynamic. Also, sections themselves can be made to balance better - a full brass section won't overtake the rest of the band, etc. So, it's not just about the orchestra being "amplified," it's about making a better use of colors and balances. |
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| re: I didn’t notice | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:46 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I didn’t notice - dramedy 01:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Are the musicians being cut purely "redundant" players there to make louder sounds, or are they providing complexities in orchestration and texture that will be lost? To cite an extreme example, the Roundabout's revival of "Sunday in the Park with George" truly suffered from the limited orchestra, with moments that felt especially anemic because one woodwind (a saxophone?) was doing the work of three or four different instruments. | |
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| Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: reed23 04:05 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I didn’t notice - Singapore/Fling 01:46 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Some conflate orchestra size with with its volume. The two actually have nothing to do with each other. The average symphony orchestra (say, 75 musicians) can play so softly you could hear a pin drop. And there's a ceiling on how loud a symphony can play. The same is true for a pit orchestra, whether it's 8 players ("The Visit," "Scottsboro Boys") or the formerly traditional 26. So there's not really any such thing as a musician added to any kind of ensemble to make it louder. Yes, it's more what you describe in terms of orchestra colors, textures, and emotional impact on the ear. I'm recalling the first FOLLIES revival, with the orchestra cut by half, with a third of the impact, ill-serving the show's grand evocation of yesteryear and the emotional complexity of the "book songs." Perhaps the worst example I saw was the A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC revival, reduced to about 8 players, including (incredibly) 2 violin players sawing away out of tune all night. (The smaller the string section, the more out of tune it sounds as you hear every player's pitch variation; the larger the string section, the more the players cancel out each other's pitch variations and form a cohesive new sound.) I once sat in the pit of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, and was surprised and a little amused that as the reveal of the chandelier approached, the musicians sat motionless reading their magazines, or whatever they normally do during long book scenes. The chandelier was revealed and began its ascent, and the orchestra didn't play a note; it was all pre-recorded organ. I forget when the actual pit orchestra played its first note, but it was something like 20 minutes in. Amplification has been around for many decades. I remember two of the loudest shows I saw, at least to that point, were the original CHICAGO and A CHORUS LINE (and they sounded magnificent – and they were both smaller ensembles than the old-time Broadway 26.) Alas, though sound technology improves annually, its use does not, in general. I had to just laugh at THE BOY FROM OZ and WICKED, the loudest shows I've ever seen, in which someone decided that volume was either the equivalent or component of excitement. It's neither. |
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| re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 06:15 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - reed23 04:05 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| When you say the pit orchestra in Phantom didn't play its first note until 20 minutes in, are you saying that the very first bits of singing from Raoul at the auction are sung to prerecorded music? This is very surprising. Less surprising that the organ in the overture is prerecorded. But there is a lot more than organ in that overture. Again I am surprised that ALL of it is prerecorded. | |
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| The PHANTOM opening | |
| Posted by: reed23 10:12 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - EvFoDr 06:15 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Yup, the actual orchestra didn't play a note until the chandelier had totally risen to the theatre ceiling, and the flashback began, back to the first scene in the Phantom's heyday. I can't quite remember but I think Raoul sings a couple of lines to either a music box or monkey-gadget-with-cymbals being auctioned – yup, pre-recorded.... the pit orchestra didn't move a muscle. |
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| re: The PHANTOM opening | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 10:55 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: The PHANTOM opening - reed23 10:12 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I think that is around four minutes into the show. Maybe five if it's a very slow performance. EDIT: If it is live when the orchestra joins the organ during the overture, that is maybe five minutes and change. If the orchestra doesn't play till it comes in during the Hannibal rehearsal, I think that is at most seven minutes into the show. |
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| re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - EvFoDr 06:15 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| The very opening music, including Raoul's section, is played on synth, live. After that, the "Overture" (the chandelier rising) is prerecorded. The first time the orchestra plays live, as far as I know, is when the chorus starts in during Hannibal ("With feasting and dancing and song.") I don't think that's anywhere close to 20 mins. Other shows that start with pre-taped music include Avenue Q (the "title song" is purely on video) and Kinky Boots (the "Price And Son" theme). I think originally the film music that opened Evita was also originally prerecorded, though I don't know if that's been true for every major production. The original version of Working also started with a rhythmic montage of job-related sounds, which segued into the live band for the start of the singing. Those who know Bernstein's Mass well will also know that the music at the top was originally played as a quadrophonic recording - the first live playing being the guitar chord for "Simple Song." |
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| PHANTOM opening | |
| Posted by: reed23 10:18 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - Chromolume 07:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| You might well be right about the synth in the auction.... it was decades ago that I sat that night in the Majestic pit next to the keyboard, so my memory may be playing tricks on me – my takeaway all these years was my surprise and amusement that the very stirring scoring of the chandelier rise was unaccompanied by any live musicians, who continued to kill time until the flashback started. | |
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| re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: ravnquest1 08:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - Chromolume 07:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| With the original backing track, the first half the overture was completely pre-recorded and the live pit played with the track for the second half. I have no idea what it is now after the new tracks were swapped in around 2008. When they recorded the new title song track they intentionally pre-recorded more instruments so they could continue cutting back on live players. The orchestra is drowned in so much reverb it's hard to tell what is live and what is not, or if there are extra sweetener tracks like there were in Vegas. The practically no-brass orchestration used by the non-replica US/UK tour and the recent world tour is likely what London is getting, and it sounds terrible, IMO | |
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| re: I didn’t notice | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 02:49 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 02:47 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I didn’t notice - Singapore/Fling 01:46 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| The GYPSY revival with Imelda Staunton cut out all the strings in the orchestra and kept a lot of brass. The strings had softened what is already a musical that tends towards brassiness and shrillness even when the lead perfomance isn't factored in. Orchestra composition and orchestration aren't something I'm usually attuned to in musicals but in that revival I thought it was painfully bad. | |
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| re: I didn’t notice | |
| Posted by: singleticket 03:13 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I didn’t notice - singleticket 02:47 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I actually would say "painful to listen to" rather than "painfully bad". The task fulfilled by the person who did the orchestrations under the direction of the production was I think competantly done. | |
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| I did notice that musicians get a bump in salary | |
| Posted by: dramedy 02:25 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I didn’t notice - Singapore/Fling 01:46 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Depending on how many instruments they play in the show (around $100/wk per extra instrument) But one can’t play more than one instrument at a time—so you probably get those sound gaps. | |
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| re: I did notice that musicians get a bump in salary | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:05 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I did notice that musicians get a bump in salary - dramedy 02:25 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Sound gaps? There shouldn't ever be any. In a well-crafted orchestration something is always going on in other books so that you don't "hear" when players are switching. Who doubles on what and when is something carefully charted out. Occasionally, two instruments at a time ARE called for, lol. Percussionists, of course, do this constantly. It's not uncommon for a keyboard player to be playing 2 synths at the same time (the original Little Shop had 3 synths layered on a stand, and the player often needed to have hands on 2 keyboards at a time). There's also a moment in West Side Story (before synths were a thing) where the pianist plays with the left hand on piano and the right hand on celeste. |
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| re: I did notice that musicians get a bump in salary | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 02:49 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I did notice that musicians get a bump in salary - dramedy 02:25 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| In the USA, 25% of minimum for first double, 15% for second double. In the UK, 15% each. | |
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| re: I didn’t notice | |
| Posted by: Leon_W 01:24 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I didn’t notice - dramedy 01:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I have a friend who played in that Sunseet orchestra. I will ask him about any amplification and let you know what he says. | |
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| Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 12:41 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: 27 down to 14, terrible cost cutting in my opinion - Leon_W 12:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| So that would be $26k saved each week. Majestic has 18 minimum. I would assume broadway is already around that number. In page 10 is list of theaters and minimums. |
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| Link | https://www.afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Broadway_CBA_2011-2016.pdf |
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| re: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 02:33 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. - dramedy 12:41 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| With all the union benefits, and taxes, and doubling, and other add ons, its a bit more than $2,000 a week. In the UK, The MU minimum at the moment is about $1,450 a week ($450 a week more than the actor minimum). Plus add ons. |
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| re: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 02:48 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. - NewtonUK 02:33 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| $ or £? | |
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| re: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 04:11 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. - KingSpeed 02:48 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I converted UK rates to $ ... minimums in large musical theatres are about 1,050UKP per week, + 15% bump for each double. | |
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| GBP not UKP nm | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:23 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Musicians make $2k/wk on broadway. - NewtonUK 04:11 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| re: True ... | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 05:02 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: GBP not UKP nm - ryhog 04:23 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| .... back in the mists of time it was UKP - which according to dictionaries is a still an acceptable, if non standard, acronym. Its interesting, actually, because the name of the 'country' is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I would have thought that Northern Ireland would have requested UKP be used, as they are so particular that they are part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain. The kind of thing that causes heads to spin! | |
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| re: True ... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:58 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: True ... - NewtonUK 05:02 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| well... really back in the mists of time, it was the Great Britain Pound because the pound sterling antedates the existence of the United Kingdom by several centuries. Saying UKP is acceptable (although people may judge you for it) in the sense that I had no difficulty figuring out what you meant but the biggest impediment today is computers since no computer is going to let you buy or sell or bank UKP. The whole identity crisis that these people have is tiresome for everyone else, though. Layer into the equation "the English" and "England." It took me 2 years of living in England with someone who denied his English-ness to fully (not) understand. Oh, and when he spoke to his family in "English," my head nearly spun off. | |
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| re: 27 down to 14, terrible cost cutting in my opinion | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 12:36 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: 27 down to 14, terrible cost cutting in my opinion - Leon_W 12:21 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Based on current MU rates, they will save around $23,000 a week. That's 300-400 tickets at UK average prices. Doesnt seem worth it to me to devalue the show for that little ... | |
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