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| Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: reed23 04:05 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I didn’t notice - Singapore/Fling 01:46 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Some conflate orchestra size with with its volume. The two actually have nothing to do with each other. The average symphony orchestra (say, 75 musicians) can play so softly you could hear a pin drop. And there's a ceiling on how loud a symphony can play. The same is true for a pit orchestra, whether it's 8 players ("The Visit," "Scottsboro Boys") or the formerly traditional 26. So there's not really any such thing as a musician added to any kind of ensemble to make it louder. Yes, it's more what you describe in terms of orchestra colors, textures, and emotional impact on the ear. I'm recalling the first FOLLIES revival, with the orchestra cut by half, with a third of the impact, ill-serving the show's grand evocation of yesteryear and the emotional complexity of the "book songs." Perhaps the worst example I saw was the A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC revival, reduced to about 8 players, including (incredibly) 2 violin players sawing away out of tune all night. (The smaller the string section, the more out of tune it sounds as you hear every player's pitch variation; the larger the string section, the more the players cancel out each other's pitch variations and form a cohesive new sound.) I once sat in the pit of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, and was surprised and a little amused that as the reveal of the chandelier approached, the musicians sat motionless reading their magazines, or whatever they normally do during long book scenes. The chandelier was revealed and began its ascent, and the orchestra didn't play a note; it was all pre-recorded organ. I forget when the actual pit orchestra played its first note, but it was something like 20 minutes in. Amplification has been around for many decades. I remember two of the loudest shows I saw, at least to that point, were the original CHICAGO and A CHORUS LINE (and they sounded magnificent – and they were both smaller ensembles than the old-time Broadway 26.) Alas, though sound technology improves annually, its use does not, in general. I had to just laugh at THE BOY FROM OZ and WICKED, the loudest shows I've ever seen, in which someone decided that volume was either the equivalent or component of excitement. It's neither. |
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| re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 06:15 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - reed23 04:05 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| When you say the pit orchestra in Phantom didn't play its first note until 20 minutes in, are you saying that the very first bits of singing from Raoul at the auction are sung to prerecorded music? This is very surprising. Less surprising that the organ in the overture is prerecorded. But there is a lot more than organ in that overture. Again I am surprised that ALL of it is prerecorded. | |
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| The PHANTOM opening | |
| Posted by: reed23 10:12 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - EvFoDr 06:15 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Yup, the actual orchestra didn't play a note until the chandelier had totally risen to the theatre ceiling, and the flashback began, back to the first scene in the Phantom's heyday. I can't quite remember but I think Raoul sings a couple of lines to either a music box or monkey-gadget-with-cymbals being auctioned – yup, pre-recorded.... the pit orchestra didn't move a muscle. |
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| re: The PHANTOM opening | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 10:55 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: The PHANTOM opening - reed23 10:12 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| I think that is around four minutes into the show. Maybe five if it's a very slow performance. EDIT: If it is live when the orchestra joins the organ during the overture, that is maybe five minutes and change. If the orchestra doesn't play till it comes in during the Hannibal rehearsal, I think that is at most seven minutes into the show. |
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| re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - EvFoDr 06:15 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| The very opening music, including Raoul's section, is played on synth, live. After that, the "Overture" (the chandelier rising) is prerecorded. The first time the orchestra plays live, as far as I know, is when the chorus starts in during Hannibal ("With feasting and dancing and song.") I don't think that's anywhere close to 20 mins. Other shows that start with pre-taped music include Avenue Q (the "title song" is purely on video) and Kinky Boots (the "Price And Son" theme). I think originally the film music that opened Evita was also originally prerecorded, though I don't know if that's been true for every major production. The original version of Working also started with a rhythmic montage of job-related sounds, which segued into the live band for the start of the singing. Those who know Bernstein's Mass well will also know that the music at the top was originally played as a quadrophonic recording - the first live playing being the guitar chord for "Simple Song." |
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| PHANTOM opening | |
| Posted by: reed23 10:18 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - Chromolume 07:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| You might well be right about the synth in the auction.... it was decades ago that I sat that night in the Majestic pit next to the keyboard, so my memory may be playing tricks on me – my takeaway all these years was my surprise and amusement that the very stirring scoring of the chandelier rise was unaccompanied by any live musicians, who continued to kill time until the flashback started. | |
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| re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume | |
| Posted by: ravnquest1 08:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Orchestra size vs. Orchestra volume - Chromolume 07:45 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| With the original backing track, the first half the overture was completely pre-recorded and the live pit played with the track for the second half. I have no idea what it is now after the new tracks were swapped in around 2008. When they recorded the new title song track they intentionally pre-recorded more instruments so they could continue cutting back on live players. The orchestra is drowned in so much reverb it's hard to tell what is live and what is not, or if there are extra sweetener tracks like there were in Vegas. The practically no-brass orchestration used by the non-replica US/UK tour and the recent world tour is likely what London is getting, and it sounds terrible, IMO | |
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