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| "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 07:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| The former even had film star Cyd Charisse in Anna Neagle's role in a London revival. | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: Jack1009 07:10 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 07:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| We saw Billy with Michael Crawford in London and just loved it. I have always been surprised it did not hit NYC. | |
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| Because Salad Days would have flopped and Charlie Girl would have been a disaster | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 01:09 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:08 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 07:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| The reviews for the original production of Charlie Girl generally ranged from dismissive to derisive. The only reason to have produced it on Broadway would have been for the investors to get tax write-offs (if that was part of the tax code at the time). Charlie Girl was a hit in London despite the reviews. I can only imagine the Broadway reviews would have been even worse, and that not even the sort of makeover that Half a Sixpence got would have made them much better. And I can't imagine that any Broadway director or choreographer of note would have been interested in trying to do a makeover. As others have said, Salad Days was an extremely twee, extremely British show, not to mention an intimate one. Brooks Atkinson wrote, "[N]o one can make anything funny out of such amateur horseplay," and Walter Kerr's review was basically "If you like this sort of thing, you'll probably like it." But I can't imagine anyone ran to the box office after reading his review or even took a leisurely stroll there. Some of the other reviews were more favorable, but not enough to make it a hit. Just as some Broadway and Off-Broadway hits are not suited to London tastes, some London hits are not suited to New York tastes. And Robert and Elizabeth would have been a disaster on Broadway. |
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| I wonder if "Charlie Girl" might have cast someone like Bobby Darin in the male lead? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:25 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:22 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Because Salad Days would have flopped and Charlie Girl would have been a disaster - AlanScott 01:08 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| Joe Brown's voice sounds something akin to the jazzy and brash Darin's in the title song. Have you ever seen a production? The book of it, while somewhat based on a Cinderella theme, is kind of original. Darin died too young and never did a musical. Btw, if you ever get a chance to see his Oscar-nominated performance in "Captain Newman, MD", it's one of the greatest acting performances of a character with post-traumatic stress disorder captured on film. He could certainly act as well as sing. He was probably too in demand to do a Broadway musical in the 60s. Has "Charlie Girl" had any major productions in the US? | |
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| re: I wonder if "Charlie Girl" might have cast someone like Bobby Darin in the male lead? | |
| Posted by: Alcindoro 06:08 pm EDT 07/12/21 | |
| In reply to: I wonder if "Charlie Girl" might have cast someone like Bobby Darin in the male lead? - PlayWiz 11:22 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| And here it is! | |
| Link | Captain Newman M.D. (1963) |
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| re: I wonder if "Charlie Girl" might have cast someone like Bobby Darin in the male lead? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 08:26 pm EDT 07/12/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:26 pm EDT 07/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I wonder if "Charlie Girl" might have cast someone like Bobby Darin in the male lead? - Alcindoro 06:08 pm EDT 07/12/21 | |
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| Oh, it's really good -- great cast with Gregory Peck as the titled doctor, Angie Dickinson his romantic lead, Tony Curtis as energetic comic relief, Eddie Albert in such a different role that it takes while to realize it's Eddie Albert, Robert Duvall very fine in an early role, and Bobby Darin incredibly moving, especially in his big scene. There are some other recognizable faces in the cast as well. | |
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| About tax write-offs | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue 08:51 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Because Salad Days would have flopped and Charlie Girl would have been a disaster - AlanScott 01:08 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| No one wants tax write-offs that are the result of losing money. So, you lost $20,000 on a show. The write-off would depend on your marginal tax rate but might be as high as $7,000. You still lost $13,000 in real money. The tax write-offs that are good are in situations where the tax codes treat income differently than you do. So a common one is rental property ownership. Under the tax code, the building is depreciated, a certain percentage each year is counted as a cost, even though a well-maintained building may actually appreciate in value over time. Once you sell the property, you pay taxes on all the depreciation you recovered in the sale. But that may be at a different tax rate and will be years later. Meanwhile you've had cash to invest. I am not your tax advisor. |
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| re: About tax write-offs | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:38 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: About tax write-offs - tmdonahue 08:51 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| You are answering a question in the present tense but I assume any discussion of bringing these shows to Broadway contemplated that it would have happened relatively contemporaneously, when the tax landscape was hugely different. Also, regarding rental property (off point but since you offered it), you leave out the fact that passive loss deductions are generally meaningless because of the extremely low maximum deduction. | |
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| re: About tax write-offs | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue 07:54 am EDT 07/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: About tax write-offs - ryhog 02:38 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| You're right. I assumed in the case of rental property that you would be an active investor, not in a REIT. Rental property was not off-topic 'cause I used it as an example of tax write offs that are desirable. Losing real money affects your taxes, sure, but you still lose money. | |
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| re: About tax write-offs | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:44 am EDT 07/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: About tax write-offs - tmdonahue 07:54 am EDT 07/12/21 | |
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| I wasn't intending to criticize you for the example. I just didn't (and don't) want to go off on a tangent. Plus, the mechanics and strategies of passive losses are not susceptible to being understood from a few sentences on a chat board. While it is correct that no one invests in a production to lose, taxes very much factor into one's aversion to losing money. I'll just add one thing which is that investing in a REIT is just one was to participate passively in real estate. | |
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| Hopefully before the 1968 film of "The Producers" spelled it out, folks were looking to make money by producing what they thought might be a hit | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:13 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:11 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: About tax write-offs - ryhog 02:38 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| and not trying to find taxably-advantaged ways to finance something they thought might flop. | |
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| "And Robert and Elizabeth would have been a disaster on Broadway" | |
| Posted by: young-walsingham 03:59 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: Because Salad Days would have flopped and Charlie Girl would have been a disaster - AlanScott 01:08 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| Would be interested to know why you think this? As other have said (and I am sure you know) the score is strong and there is a compelling story. I would have thought in the 1960's it would have had a chance. | |
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| re: "And Robert and Elizabeth would have been a disaster on Broadway" | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:42 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: "And Robert and Elizabeth would have been a disaster on Broadway" - young-walsingham 03:59 am EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| I saw Robert and Elizabeth at the Chichester revival and I can only imagine that the original was a much better production. The leads were underwhelming singers where great voices are called for. I doubt it would have played well on Broadway in the 1960s, too old operettaish when audiences were rejecting the style. The D'Oyly Carte Opera did several american tours around this time with the same strong casts that recorded the stereo versions of all the operettas on Decca London and yet the tours were only moderately successful. Another few years and the company stopped american tours for lack of box office. Robert and Elizabeth belonged at City Opera which was doing these kind of things at the time. Now only Ohio Light Opera is the only place I could imagine tackling it, but they are never able to produce two thrilling leads capable of making the piece take off. Despite the incredible score, it is too out of date and was even 60 years ago. Sit back, enjoy the great cast album. | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 07:52 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 07:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| If you're asking why Salad Days wasn't produced on Broadway in the Fifties, and why Charlie Girl didn't come to Broadway in the mid-Sixties, I think I can make some guesses. Salad Days is a very small musical with a very small--and terminally quaint--plot. It's about a magic piano that causes everyone that hears it to dance, with no very compelling consequences that I recall from the cast album. (I've never seen a staged production.) The score is pleasant and amiable. Perhaps the entire show is that, too. But on Fifties Broadway, a hit musical was Guys and Dolls or My Fair Lady or West Side Story--something that was a lot more than just pleasant and amiable, something big, bold, and with a very compelling story. Even off Broadway in 1958, where a show of its size belonged, Salad Days only managed a short run. I can't imagine it having been a hit on Broadway at that time. In my opinion, Charlie Girl is a stronger show, and there's no intrinsic reason why it couldn't have been a hit on Broadway in, say, 1966 or '67, right after the very British Half a Sixpence had just been a Broadway hit. I think the scores of Charlie Girl and Half a Sixpence are about comparable. But who would have played Charlie Girl on Broadway? The two leads are really the two middle-aged ladies who play the mothers of the show's bride- and groom-to-be (until that plan gets kiboshed). Anna Neagle of the London cast was not a Broadway star, and I doubt that this show would have made her one, as Half a Sixpence did for Tommy Steele. Angela Lansbury and Bea Arthur might have been ideally cast--but they were otherwise engaged in 1966-67! ; ) Without surefire star casting, I imagine it was thought that the show just wasn't quite strong enough to risk the transfer. |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:16 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:08 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - keikekaze 07:52 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| I was listening to the original London cast recording of "Charlie Girl" (up on YouTube with permission), and it's a very nice score, with a very catchy title song. The male top-billed star was a British Cockney popular music star, Joe Brown (who I wasn't familiar with); later on during the run the role was taken on by Gerry Marsden of the group Gerry and the Pacemakers, who had major hits in the US and UK on the pop charts during the 60s British Invasion. The recently departed Stuart Damon had a good supporting role as an American millionaire in it as well. The show sounds quite silly and fun and "daft", and frankly, something of a tonic for troubled times, and worth checking out. I'd love to see a production mounted somewhere. Since Cyd Charisse took Anna Neagle's role in the London revival, it might be tailor made for a more mature dancing lady who sings like Donna McKechnie, Sandy Duncan, Karen Ziemba, or, if she'd allow herself to play the mother of at least one daughter of marriageable age, Catherine Zeta-Jones. Perhaps some place like Paper Mill Playhouse for a possible run with or without an eye for Broadway? It's better than some of the stuff that's been written and produced in recent years, had a track record as a big hit in London, and it sounds like just a really fun show. |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 11:53 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 11:08 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| I agree that Charlie Girl sounds like it could be a lot of fun, and besides the title song, Charlie's establishing song, "Bells Will Ring," is a beauty too. That song would have graced any Broadway musical. And the American fascination at the time with all things "swinging London" would certainly have helped the show, too, in the mid-Sixties. Now, I'm not so sure that it could still be a Broadway hit, but stranger things have happened. (Hello, Me and My Girl!) Maybe some revival-minded group like Mufti or Encores should do a series of British musicals that never made it to Broadway, but are still worth a look. | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:27 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - keikekaze 11:53 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| Maybe some revival-minded group like Mufti or Encores should do a series of British musicals that never made it to Broadway, but are still worth a look. I guess it would have to be Mufti. Seems like the way things are now, Encores would opt for Oliver. :-) |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 11:17 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - Chromolume 09:27 pm EDT 07/11/21 | |
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| If not Cats! ; ) | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 07:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| Salad Days is a delightful, very fanciful show. I love the '82 revival cast album with Elizabeth Seal. Probably too British to ever go over on Broadway. There was an Off-Broadway production in '58 at the Barbizon-Plaza Theatre that opened during a newspaper strike and ran for 80 performances. Charlie Girl is another fine musical. I have the '82 revival cast album with Cyd Charisse (of whom I am a devoted fan). Again probably too British for American audiences. I wonder if York Theatre would consider doing these shows as part of their Mufti series. Other excellent British musicals: Chrysanthemum, Spend Spend Spend, Robert and Elizabeth, Valmouth, Expresso Bongo, Follow That Girl among many others |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 08:53 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:53 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - BroadwayTonyJ 08:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| I think "The Good Companions" is one of my favorites. They did a Mufti of it some years ago, and it was lovely. I'd love to see a full production of it -- great score by Andre Previn and Johnny Mercer, and a story that should endear itself to musical audiences about 3 people freeing themselves from their different life situations and ending up joining and supporting a traveling group of performers. | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:27 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 08:53 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| I love the Ron Grainer score of Robert and Elizabeth and own cast albums of the '64 original with the glorious June Bronhill and the '87 revival. I've never seen a production and hope that it will eventually get a Mufti revival. I agree about The Good Companions. The original '74 cast recording with John Mills and Judi Dench just oozes with charm. Mercer was such a quintessential American songwriter but really captured British sensibility with his lyrics for Previn's fine score. I particularly enjoy Mills' rendition of "Ta Luv". |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: scoot1er 01:48 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - BroadwayTonyJ 10:27 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| I saw Robert and Elizabeth in a gorgeous production at Paper Mill in either the late 70s or early 80s. I had always loved the score and was anxious to see it. As I recall—and it was a long time ago—it was old fashioned even then and seemed to be firmly planted in operetta territory. I don’t know if that production was intended as a Broadway tryout, but if it were, it was also clear why it didn’t transfer. A pity as the score and production were beautiful. | |
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| Robert and Elizabeth | |
| Posted by: peter3053 03:36 pm EDT 07/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - scoot1er 01:48 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| Robert and Elizabeth made for pretty strong stuff for an operetta - a father's mental abuse of his daughter and oppressive dominance of his family. Also, there was a modern, early 60s (therefore, at the time contemporary) sensibility of rebellion through it. Also, musical montage sequences, one in Act One which I would say had a filmic quality (according to what is described in the script). The Soliloquy by Elizabeth which opens Act Two is the equal of any of the greatest of musical theater songs. And in the original production, the finale which had the train arriving, coming at the audience, is said by those who saw it to have been wonderful. Eminently revivable, but would need money and canny casting, I suspect. |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:45 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:37 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - BroadwayTonyJ 10:27 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| John Mills had a very nice singing voice indeed, which he later demonstrated poignantly playing the old theater cat in a televised "Cats" performance. I wonder if he was considered for Henry Higgins back when "My Fair Lady" was cast, though he tended to be cast as more working class to middle class or military roles I think, at least based on things like Pip in "Great Expectations" and his role as Willie in David Lean's wonderful film of "Hobson's Choice". Perhaps he played Alfred Doolittle at some point? I think Marti Webb sounds pretty terrific in "The Good Companions" in her numbers -- great belt in "Stage Struck" and she's very moving in her "Stage Door John" number as well. |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:50 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 12:37 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| John Mills played Alfred Doolittle on Broadway in the '87 revival of Pygmalion. Peter O'Toole and Amanda Plummer were Higgins and Eliza. | |
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| Pygmalion was a great revival with those stars | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 01:04 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - BroadwayTonyJ 12:50 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| So fortunate to see that cast with John Mills and Peter O'Toole with a perfect Amanda Plummer. Broadway 1987 seems like yesterday. Once upon a time Broadway had a trove of stars. | |
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| re: Pygmalion was a great revival with those stars | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:28 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: Pygmalion was a great revival with those stars - FinalPerformance 01:04 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| That was quite a good production - I'm glad to be reminded that John Mills was in it. He was capable of playing the musical Doolittle as well at some point. | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue 08:30 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 07:47 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| Historically, not all West End hits prosper on Broadway and vice versa. "Buddy" was a huge hit in London; zip in New York. Despite good reviews "Matilda" did not thrive on Broadway as it had on the West End. An article in the The Telegraph lists some shows that did well on Broadway but not the West End: "City of Angels," "The Drowsy Chaperone," "Pippin," "Movin' Out," "Spring Awakening," and "Thoroughly Modern Millie." "Salad Days" played at the Barbizon-Plaza in 1958 and Brooks Atkinson hated it. (Same show?) Today, the theater spaces at the Barbizon-Plaza, mostly a 1400 room hotel, would be considered off-Broadway. The building is now the Trump Parc. The London revival of "Charlie Girl" with Cyd Charisse (whose legs were insured for $1 million by the producer!) ran only 6 months. A synopsis from Wikipedia: "Lady Hadwell, the widow of an aristocrat, is struggling to make ends meet by opening her home to the public. The youngest of her three daughters, Charlotte, known as "Charlie", is a tomboy. Their loyal assistant, Joe, is in love with Charlie. When he learns he has won a fortune on the football pools, he conceals the fact from his employers. In the meantime, her mother is hoping for an engagement between Charlie and an American millionaire. The most memorable and comic moment of the show is when in a Cinderella style takeoff, Charlie has to return her hired evening gown, and the rest of the guests at the ball also decide to cavort in their underwear." Answer your question? |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 08:56 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:55 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - tmdonahue 08:30 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| Thanks. I'd love to see "Charlie Girl" even more now! :) Something purposely silly can be lots of fun. | |
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| re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? | |
| Posted by: edinalex 01:55 pm EDT 07/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Charlie Girl" and "Salad Days" - both long West End runs - why not Broadway? - PlayWiz 08:55 am EDT 07/10/21 | |
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| The original ran 2,200 performances. I saw the revival. It was delightfully daft. The standout performance was Dora Bryan. | |
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