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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Posted by: FleetStreetBarber 08:43 am EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - WaymanWong 10:59 pm EDT 08/14/21 | |
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| It certainly is plausible that he saw the show, given that his daughter with Fanny, Frances, was married to the show's producer, Ray Stark. | |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:12 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:11 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - FleetStreetBarber 08:43 am EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| That's fascinating. I never knew of that tie-in. But I wonder what Arnstein thought of the show. I couldn't find any quotes from him. The Wikipedia entry for ''Funny Girl'' (musical) has so much backstory about how it was created. At one point, it was proposed as a vehicle for Mary Martin, with a score by Styne and Sondheim, but Sondheim said: ''I don't want to do the life of Fanny Brice with Mary Martin. She's not Jewish. You need someone ethnic for the part.'' So many names came up throughout its journey to Broadway: Jerome Robbins, Anne Bancroft, Eydie Gorme (who wanted Steve Lawrence to play Nicky), Carol Burnett and Garson Kanin (whose novel ''Smash'' is based loosely on directing ''Funny Girl''). |
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| Link | Wikipedia: 'Funny Girl' (musical) |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Posted by: larry13 04:17 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - WaymanWong 02:11 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| I looked too but also couldn't find anything about his reactions to the show, although I thought I had read something somewhere(maybe in an obit?). There are so many stories about how the show came to be and the various people proposed, hired, fired, etc. Obviously, some versions conflict. Not everything can be true. One example that differs from this Wikipedia entry is that Styne, certainly by the time he first saw and heard Streisand, didn't want Bancroft who was still in the picture. He then deliberately wrote music he knew Bancroft couldn't sing(and I've always wondered how much could she sing)and she THEN dropped out. But the connection between Ray Stark and Fanny and Nicky IS absolutely crucial to what emerged. Read elsewhere about the real Fanny and Nicky and you'll find a huge amount of fascinating info that shows just how much the play and film changed the facts. Probably most importantly is that the real Arnstein was MUCH more unsavory than the character onstage/in the film. His daughter may have looked down/askance on Streisand--and fortunately she didn't get her way with casting--but she sure guaranteed a whitewash of her parental origins. |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:20 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:11 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - larry13 04:17 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| Anne Bancroft did some guest spots on television variety shows and had at least one well-regarded special of her own where she sang. I think she also sang in the Mel Brook remake of "To Be Or Not To Be". She had, if I recall, a very nice and pleasant singing voice, but not a thrilling powerhouse one like Streisand. Here she is with Perry Como. |
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| Link | Anne Bancroft-Perry Como singing "Volare" |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Posted by: larry13 05:26 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - PlayWiz 05:11 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| I was going to say in my post earlier that I'm in awe of Bancroft's acting AND, in particular, her fabulous TV special. I don't recall how much she sang in that but I'm sure it was decent. I think we're in agreement, however, that the role of Fanny, as written, would not have suited her. I don't know if others who have succeeded well in the role--such as Mimi Hines, Carol Lawrence and Barbara Cook--would ever have been characterized as "a thrilling powerhouse" but they had the vocal(and acting)chops apparently for the part. | |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:48 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:41 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - larry13 05:26 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| Hines had a very fine voice and was funny and seemed to have the whole package. The show ran for quite a while with her after Streisand left; my Mom told me that she thought Hines was great and hilarious when she saw her. I saw Carol Lawrence a couple of times in her club act, a very talented lady, although she tried a bit too hard to be funny at spots. I'm not sure how she might have been as Fanny. Regarding Barbara Cook, I'll make an analogy to some great tenors. I don't know if you know opera well, but I once made the distinction between two top tenors of the mid-to-end of the 20th Century -- Franco Corelli and Carlo Bergonzi. Corelli's voice was beautiful because it was so thrilling. (Ok, he was also movie star handsome!) Bergonzi's voice was so thrilling because it was so beautiful. I would bet Barbara Cook's "Glitter and Be Gay " was both thrilling and beautiful! Leonard Bernstein told her before a performance of "Candide" that Maria Callas was attending to not be alarmed; Callas wishes that she had Cook's high E notes! Her Fanny Brice I can mainly judge on her recording of "Who Are You Now" which is exquisitely beautiful -- thrillingly so. Plus she's funny in her "Ice Cream", "Where's My Shoe" in "She Loves Me", "I Wouldn't Marry You" and "The Label on the Bottle" from "The Gay Life", and had major Broadway credit in comedies. So I'm sure she was a whole different but complete package as Fanny Brice, and one I and others would probably pounce on with great anticipation if there were recordings of her doing it. |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:52 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:50 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - WaymanWong 02:11 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| It would have been great with Steve and Eydie! They both did comedy later on "Carol Burnett Show", and Eydie sure had the voice for the role. The director would have worked with Gorme on acting the dramatic scenes as much as they needed to with Streisand to get the performance needed. Lawrence was short, but I think the real Arnstein was as well, plus Lawrence around that time did "What Makes Sammy Run" on Broadway which proved he could really act as well. Plus they were both Jewish. | |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Posted by: larry13 03:38 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - PlayWiz 02:50 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| Whether or not Lawrence being "short" and Jewish and having played Sammy Glick would have made him a decent Nicky Arnstein is one thing. Do you really think that the director--whether it was Kanin or Robbins or Stanislavski--working with Gorme, as WAS done with Streisand, would have resulted in an adequate Fanny Brice? Do you really think Gorme had it in her to be the actress the role calls for? | |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:16 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:06 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - larry13 03:38 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| Most of Fanny's non-comedic scenes are melodrama, not Greek tragedy, not Restoration comedy or Shakespeare. Gorme was a wonderful singer who could really capture the mood in her songs whether in Spanish with her famous recordings with the Trio Los Panchos, or English (her "If He Walked Into My LIfe" is superb) or in a novelty song like "Blame It On the Bossa Nova". She may have done some comedy sketches as well as songs on the Steve Allen "Tonight Show", so she certainly knew the pressures of performing live. I maintain if she had been chosen, the people involved would have drilled her like they did with Streisand to get a more than "adequate" performance out of her. Acting, if turns out, wasn't as important to her in the long run, as was keeping her singing career with Steve Lawrence. "Golden Rainbow" I think was her only Broadway appearance, and it was apparently something on the order of a Las Vegas show with a story. The opening number on the Tonys is so out there in its enjoyable tackiness. But Miss Marmelstein wasn't particularly a big stretch character-wise for Streisand, and Gorme was quite funny on "Carol Burnett". If Gorme had gotten the role, it's possible Streisand might been known more for her recordings and/or for playing a kooky tv character. | |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:29 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - PlayWiz 05:06 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| I agree that Eydie Gorme was one of the greatest pop singers of all time. Her renditions of such Broadway songs as "Too Close for Comfort", "If He Walked into My Life", "What Did I Have That I Don't Have", and countless others are thrilling to hear. I also believe she was genuinely loved and respected by countless entertainment giants like Steve Allen, Johnny Carson, and Carol Burnett, who showcased her talent on their TV shows. However, the assessment of Gorme's acting skills by various theatre writers and historians is pretty dismal. William Goldman devotes an entire chapter to Golden Rainbow in The Season. In it he details her inability to deliver basic dramatic and comic dialogue effectively. Instead she occasionally employed phony little tricks and gimmicks to get through certain scenes in order to satisfy an undemanding audience. I think Stark, Robbins, Styne, and Kanin made the right decision in casting Streisand and Chaplin as Fanny and Nick in Funny Girl. Of course, just IMO. |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 08:57 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:47 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - BroadwayTonyJ 08:29 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| The Wikipedia entry for "Golden Rainbow" says: "Author William Goldman wrote a gossipy and unflattering chapter about Golden Rainbow in his book The Season: A Candid Look at Broadway, which was written while the show was preparing for Broadway. The chapter, entitled "Washing Garbage," claimed that the material was weak to begin with and suffered from strenuous attempts to bring everything up to the level expected for a show starring the hugely popular Steve and Eydie." So Goldman apparently saw it during rehearsals. Arthur Storch, the director, had directed mostly comedies, though I think later he did a lot of work at regionals, chiefly Syracuse Stage. It's possible by that "in order to satisfy an undemanding audience" the director didn't demand much of Gorme either. Moss Hart might have whipped her acting ass into shape like he did Julie Andrews on "My Fair Lady"; so would Robbins, not known for pussyfooting around or suffering fools gladly. Listen, I love Gorme as a singer -- she's really superb, and I don't know if Streisand ever acknowledged her or other female singers who were among her contemporaries or rivals around the time she was emerging or thereabouts. It is possible that had Gorme done the show, Streisand might have had a different career, same as if Julie Andrews were fired from "My Fair Lady", Sally Ann Howes might have had Julie's career. Things aligned as they did. Both Streisand and Andrews were Broadway stars at age 21! |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:54 am EDT 08/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - PlayWiz 08:47 pm EDT 08/15/21 | |
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| I think I love and admire Eydie Gorme just as much as you do. I always enjoyed her appearances on programs hosted by Steve Allen and Johnny Carson because she sang show tunes. As a pop or nightclub singer, absolutely no one ever performed numbers like "If He Walked into My Life" and "What Did I Have That I Don't Have" better on TV talk and variety shows than Gorme. I agree that she was superb, and her renditions were thrilling. Nevertheless, IMO there is nothing that can equal the insight and effectiveness (especially in the context of their stories) that Angela Lansbury and Barbara Harris brought to these same numbers on their respective cast recordings. To me it's like comparing apples to oranges. I think from the get-go Andrews and Streisand had serious acting ambitions in addition to wanting singing careers. When Gorme was considered for Funny Girl, she apparently told Stark, Styne, and Robbins that her acceptance of the role was contingent on her husband playing Nick. I cannot imagine Julie Andrews saying to Lerner, Loewe, and Moss Hart, "Okay, guys, I'll play Guinevere but only if Tony is the costume and scenic designer for Camelot." Or Streisand telling Stark, Styne, and Robbins, "Sure I'll play Fanny, but only if Elliott is Arnstein." That's the difference I see between Gorme and the two actresses you named. Just to be clear, I respect your opinions immensely and enjoy reading and (occasionally) responding to your posts. |
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| re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:26 am EDT 08/16/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:18 am EDT 08/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Bobby Cannavale as Nicky Arnstein? - BroadwayTonyJ 10:54 am EDT 08/16/21 | |
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| Feel free to keep on keeping on, Tony. I enjoy your posts, too. Now Steve and Eydie were both big names back then, and Lawrence actually probably resembled Nick more than Sydney Chaplin, so it's not too extraordinary for her to have wanted him to play opposite her. They had a very long-lasting marriage (until she died), and besides her own recordings, usually more than not appeared with Lawrence as a team. Streisand didn't (most likely) suggest Elliot, but she did, after she was cast, realize how essential her casting was, and she began to tell people if she felt necessary (big names) to fuck off, etc. and assert herself strongly. She and Gould and likewise Andrews and Tony Walton weren't known by their first names as a team like Steve and Eydie either. Steve ended up on Broadway at the same time as "Funny Girl" anyway, in 'What Makes Sammy Run", getting a Tony nomination! Of course, Gwen Verdon did get Bob Fosse his first directing gig on Broadway in "Redhead" by insisting on him. He had previously solely done the choreography. So those kind of things do happen, but she already had 3 Tony Awards by then, soon to add a 4th. Yes, I love Angela Lansbury and Barbara Harris as well! You can almost perfectly visualize Harris on the "Apple Tree" recording, so strong is her vocal acting performance throughout, in particular. |
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