Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: What?.... | |
| Last Edit: Zelgo 02:49 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 02:47 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - JT 02:44 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| I think we're all missing the point of being an actor--being something on stage that you personally are not. Asians, African Americans, LGBT have been underrepresented on stage and feel they should at least play roles representing them. So I understand their gripe when someone not of their background plays their roles. Have Jews been so underrepresented? |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 10:25 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - Zelgo 02:47 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Actually - in some instances, yes they have been or if they've been represented they're represented far more narrowly than they should be - particularly when casting actors who "look" Jewish in many types of roles. Ethnicity is one thing when it's apparent on the surface. But this is the natural extension of the complaints about actors playing roles of who they are not in real life. If you're going to complain about a straight actor playing a LGBT role or other roles where you now have to inquire with the actor things about them that aren't physically apparent, then this complaint is absolutely justified. I personally am not offended and don't mind the casting but to me it's a package deal with many of the other complaints I also don't agree with. | |
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| Kay Medford (re: What?....) | |
| Posted by: Marlo*Manners 03:32 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - Zelgo 02:47 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Kay Medford originated the role of Mrs. Brice in the Broadway and Hollywood film adaptation of "Funny Girl". Her birth name was Margaret Kathleen Regan or O'Regan. Irish Catholic. Joan Rivers also spoke out against "Jewface" when discussing the 1993 film version of "The Cemetery Club" starring Ellen Burstyn and Diane Ladd and Olympia Dukakis (Lainie Kazan was the only Jew in the movie). The 1986 movie version of "Brighton Beach Memoirs" cast uber-shiksa Blythe Danner as the strong Jewish mother Kate Jerome and many complained she was miscast. Italian-American Anne Bancroft played her share of Jewish mothers - but she had an urban ethnic New York sensibility (and was a superb actress). There is a certain "New York Jewish" thing as well as Jewish humor that are hard to capture if you aren't the authentic real thing and can feel like fake caricature if "acted". I think Jane Lynch will be good in the part, Jewish or no. Marlo Manners (Lady Barrington) |
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| And then there's intentional effort to eschew caricature or archetype: Feiffer's Grown Ups | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 07:48 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 07:41 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Kay Medford (re: What?....) - Marlo*Manners 03:32 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Jules Feiffer was adamant that the complex mother in his (wonderful) play Grown Ups be cast and played 180 from the popular cultural archetype. He discusses it in detail in the printed text*. On Broadway, Frances Sternhagen basically started from scratch, subtly building a woman who tossed in Yiddishisms with quotations marks around them, who self-presented in such a way that any of the cliches were handled performatively. She was absolutely unlike any "Jewish Mother" that we had seen. And the woman's power was in her absolute avoidance of overt displays of matriarchal control; and we never see any (cliched) aggression, at least until quite late in the third act. It was a brilliant, boldly original performance that incrementally made a case for a particular New York woman whose issues were not tethered to an ethnic identity. Feiffer wanted us to see this woman without the baggage *we* might bring. Without pre-judging her, certainly the way entertainment so often characterizes the larger-than-life Jewish women of Manhattan. In the very good Showtime iteration, the role fell to Jean Stapleton, a bizarre choice to many. The performance isn't entirely successful, but she nailed what Feiffer wanted, and carved out an entirely original woman. *UPDATE: Not wanting to misrepresent the playwright's wishes in a paraphrase, I pulled down my French script. Feiffer's words; "The strongest of them, Helen, cannot be played as a stereotypical stage or TV Jewish mother, or the play sinks like a stone. She dereives from another, less familiar tradition. Her style is cheerful; she has cultivated a genteel, educated, ladylike manner. Her forays into Yiddishisms, while used fondly, have a touch of condescension. Her flirtatiousness and playfulness are conscious choices, done for effect. Her power is innate, rarely calling for naked display. She is the motor of act one." |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - Zelgo 02:47 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Have Jews been so underrepresented? Well... Felicity Jones (not Jewish) played Ruth Bader Ginsberg in On the Basis of Sex. Rachel Brosnahan (not Jewish) plays the Marvellous Mrs Maisel. In Mrs. America, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug and Gloria Steinem were played by Tracy Ullman, Margo Martindale and Rose Byrne—none of whom are Jewish. Kathryn Hahn (not Jewish) has been cast as Joan Rivers. Make no mistake, I admire a lot of these performers. But this looks suspiciously like a trend. As anti-Semitism is on the rise, when does it stop being acceptable to water down Jewish representation in TV and film? |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 02:46 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - MockingbirdGirl 03:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Judaism is a religion, not a race. Anyone can be Jewish if they want to. | |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 04:20 pm EDT 10/07/21 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 04:16 pm EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - KingSpeed 02:46 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
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| Judaism is a religion, not a race. Anyone can be Jewish if they want to. It's both. That's why sites like Ancestry.com and 23andMe.com return results with Jewish as an ethnicity, and why 'Sephardic' and 'Ashkenazi' are not just ethnic but also religious designations. |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 09:18 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - MockingbirdGirl 03:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| The fact that there are so many Jewish roles goes against the idea that anti-Semitism is somehow affecting theatre and TV. The big fear I have in demanding that only Jews play Jews (or gays play gays) is that most roles are not Jews or gays. Does that mean only Wasps must play Wasps? That would cuts Jews and Gays (and others) from most roles. |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 09:35 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - Zelgo 09:18 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| The fact that there are so many Jewish roles goes against the idea that anti-Semitism is somehow affecting theatre and TV. Not sure I agree with that, especially if making them less obviously "Jewy" is part of the equation. And no one has actually suggested that "X can only play X." But the absence of Jews playing Jews is not passing unnoticed. Nor should it. |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 06:08 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - MockingbirdGirl 03:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Sarah Silverman cited many of these same examples in her recent podcast, calling out ''Jewface'' in Hollywood. The comic's had her own reckoning about ethnic issues, admitting: ''There are jokes I made 15 years ago I would absolutely not make today.'' In 2007, she appeared in blackface for a sketch on her Comedy Central show, which she now disavows and is ''horrified'' by. Silverman might've first made my radar when she was on Conan O'Brien's late-night show in 2001. She joked about trying to avoid jury duty: “My friend is like, ‘Why don’t you write something inappropriate on the form like ‘I hate Chinks,’ ” Silverman said. But, because she didn’t want people to think she was racist, she joked, “I just filled out the form and I wrote ‘I love Chinks’ — and who doesn’t?” |
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| Link | Indiewire.com: Sarah Silverman Calls Out Hollywood's 'Jewface' Problem |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: Roman 05:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - MockingbirdGirl 03:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| I’m in agreement with you here. I can’t believe, with all the talented Jewish actresses/comediennes in New York, they came up with Jane Lynch. I mean, Jackie Hoffman, if she could contain the urge to mug, would have been divine. It still bugs me that Bea Arthur and Estelle Getty were hired to play Italian Catholics (they were never convincing, as such). Why the creators chose not to make the characters Jewish, I’ll never know. Estelle Getty’s tenor and rhythm always reminded me of me Aunt Rhoda, who spoke fluent Yiddish. But so does Nancy Walker as Aida Morgenstern, Rhoda’s mother. Nancy wasn’t Jewish, but she sure was convincing — at least in her earlier appearances. |
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| Are directors supposed to ask if an actor is Jewish? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 02:48 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - Roman 05:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Or do they just guess by stereotypical mannerisms? | |
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| No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:38 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:36 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Are directors supposed to ask if an actor is Jewish? - KingSpeed 02:48 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
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| Sometimes last names are a hint, though I think they might go astray with Whoopi Goldberg! | |
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| re: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:41 pm EDT 10/12/21 | |
| In reply to: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" - PlayWiz 11:36 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
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| None of a director's business what an actor did over Christmas? Are you really suggesting that only people who celebrate Hanukkah can play Jewish characters? | |
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| re: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:15 pm EDT 10/12/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:06 pm EDT 10/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" - KingSpeed 04:41 pm EDT 10/12/21 | |
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| Not at all. Just in conversation one can sometimes glean things about a person -- their significant other, what holiday is appropriate to wish them, any children, age, etc. which may, may, factor at some point into a casting situation, possibly for a future show. | |
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| re: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:13 pm EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" - PlayWiz 11:36 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
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| This is really becoming a hateful conversation. | |
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| re: No, not really | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:40 pm EDT 10/07/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:38 pm EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No, not really - though certain cultural references sometimes are shared in conversation - like "what did you do over Christmas?" "Oh, you mean Chanukah, sorry, me too!" - Chromolume 12:13 pm EDT 10/07/21 | |
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| No hateful intention. Just observation - the same way people try to find out your age by asking when you graduated from school or, in a more roundabout way, did you go to such school with so and so (whose age they may know). | |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: showtunesoprano 05:21 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - Roman 05:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| If you saw the Yiddish Fiddler on the Roof, you know that Jackie Hoffman can ABSOLUTELY contain the urge to mug. | |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:39 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - showtunesoprano 05:21 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Jackie Hoffman was also terrific, restrained and very much in character in the miniseries "Feud" about Bette Davis and Joan Crawford making "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" | |
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| Tale of Hoffman | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 11:00 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - PlayWiz 05:39 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Jackie Hoffman tweeted: “So the director of the new 'Funny Girl' saw me play Yente in Yiddish 'Fiddler' and didn’t cast me as the Jewish mother or nosy neighbor.” |
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| re: Tale of Hoffman | |
| Posted by: Roman 11:40 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: Tale of Hoffman - WaymanWong 11:00 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| She’s not wrong. But I fear Jane is. | |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: JT 03:33 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - MockingbirdGirl 03:05 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| Female Jewish performers on Broadway (as is the case in movies and television) are most definitely underrepresented and it would make a positive impact to see a Jewish actress play Rosie Brice. As stated previously, representation matters! | |
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| re: What?.... | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 11:27 am EDT 10/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: What?.... - JT 03:33 pm EDT 10/06/21 | |
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| This entire discussion makes me think of Sir Laurence Olivier in blackface as Othello. I need to banish that thought. | |
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