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| "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Guillaume 08:07 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| NY Times review. This was what I expected as soon as Tony Kushner got involved. | |
| Link | Chatty. |
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| But would it play Peoria? Kushner's adaptation works for *today's* film audiences, especially those beyond NYC | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 04:52 pm EST 12/27/21 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 04:51 pm EST 12/27/21 | |
| In reply to: "Chatty" West Side Story - Guillaume 08:07 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| To state the obvious, dance is an entirely different performance medium than film, and I thought that the adaptation really worked for a modern film audience. More specifically, an audience that wasn't sitting in a Broadway theater in 1957, well-versed in the news headlines and personal observations on how gentrification, class warfare and racism were impacting an area of Manhattan merely twenty minutes away. I think we forget just how clueless most of the world is about these things. This film wasn't just written to play Peoria, but play Pretoria, Puebla and Padova, too. In 2021, today's audience could really benefit from some extra telling, not showing, and I found Kushner's additions not only added valuable backstory but meaningful emotional impact. As I've often said, WEST SIDE STORY is my favorite musical. I loved the film. I thought it was a bold, creative triumph that took beautiful inspiration from the courage of the original creators. - GMB |
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| re: But would it play Peoria? Kushner's adaptation works for *today's* film audiences, especially those beyond NYC. Well said | |
| Posted by: Duke1979 09:45 pm EST 12/28/21 | |
| In reply to: But would it play Peoria? Kushner's adaptation works for *today's* film audiences, especially those beyond NYC - GrumpyMorningBoy 04:51 pm EST 12/27/21 | |
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| I truly did not expect the emotional wallop that this film delivered. Heartbreaking and devastating. The raw violence was overwhelming. This remains the most innovative score to ever hit Broadway with the sheer audacity of its musical idioms. Astonishing that Spielberg was able to pull off this miracle. I hope it will get a wider audience when it moves to streaming but it needs to be seen on the big screen. They just don’t make them like this anymore. Ex eat that they did. Rita Moreno is beyond words. A Boy Like That is a dramatic masterpiece thanks to Sondheim’s lyrics. The air is hummin and Oscar gold is coming. | |
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| re: But would it play Peoria? Kushner's adaptation works for *today's* film audiences, especially those beyond NYC. Well said | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:00 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:58 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| In reply to: re: But would it play Peoria? Kushner's adaptation works for *today's* film audiences, especially those beyond NYC. Well said - Duke1979 09:45 pm EST 12/28/21 | |
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| I enjoyed the film. But Duke1979, your post is hyperbole. | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: schauspieler 09:07 am EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: "Chatty" West Side Story - Guillaume 08:07 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| Interesting reaction to the new film version. Not mine, but the writer's argument coincidentally comes up in that 1985 symposium led by Terrence McNally involving the four original creators of WSS posted by raydan a couple of days ago. Sondheim remembers that they were urged by Cheryl Crawford (the original producer while they were developing the show) to give the characters more backstory to explain why they were the way they were. In Sondheim's opinion, as I recall, such explanations would have diminished the musical which he saw as a 'fantasia' and not as a kind of sociological drama. Chunks of Laurents' book were repeatedly dropped (with Laurents' approval) in favor of dance, musical underscoring, or song sequences. | |
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| found myself agreeing with everything this says. (nm) | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 09:50 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:41 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
| In reply to: "Chatty" West Side Story - Guillaume 08:07 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| nm | |
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| re: found myself agreeing with everything this says. (nm) | |
| Posted by: jero 06:07 pm EST 12/28/21 | |
| In reply to: found myself agreeing with everything this says. (nm) - Chazwaza 09:41 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| Me too. | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:40 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
| In reply to: "Chatty" West Side Story - Guillaume 08:07 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| Kourlas' example is strange, though. Tony and Maria DO also have dialogue that that moment in the stage show when they meet - it's just different in the film. She's making it seem as if all they do originally is dance, and now it's been replaced by dialogue. | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: theatreguy40 02:23 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chromolume 09:40 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| However - in the original movie (and stage production) they "Dance" first before they speak a word. That delicate Cha-cha "dance" is the metaphor!!!! Also - it seemed a bit tawdry that in the new movie Tony and Maria meet under the bleachers as opposed to (in the original movie and stage production) they are still in the middle of the gym with everyone around them but they can only "see" each other -- far more poetic and beautiful... | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:54 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - theatreguy40 02:23 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| Not only is it more poetic and beautiful, but it speaks very clearly to what the show is about, the conflict of the two waring sides surrounding them, threatening to tear them apart, but they find each other and come together through the noise and the world melts away so it's just them. It is such a key part of the show and the movie, for the new movie to do away with that seems a reflection of what these artists who claim to love and admire the original so much do not understand about it and how/why it worked. |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 10:26 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 10:25 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chazwaza 08:54 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| Spielberg and Kushner made their new version of ''West Side Story'' with great reverence toward the original. They got the blessing and support of the estates of Jerome Robbins, Leonard Bernstein and Arthur Laurents, plus Stephen Sondheim went over the script with Kushner and visited the set. On his last appearance on ''The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,'' back in September, Sondheim raved: ''It's really terrific. Everybody go. You'll have a good time. For those of you who know [''West Side Story'], there are gonna be some real surprises because Tony Kushner, who wrote the screenplay, has done some really imaginative and surprising things with the way the songs are used in the story. The whole thing has real sparkle and real energy. And it feels fresh. It's really first-rate. Movie musicals are hard to do. And Spielberg and Kushner really nailed it.'' |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 03:16 am EST 12/26/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:11 am EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - WaymanWong 10:25 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| I suppose I'm automatically wrong then? As long as the living relatives controlling the estate of the dead authors (who all died long before talk of another movie ever began) gave their approval for a new film (directed by one of the most impressive and powerful and beloved filmmakers in film history, with a revised screenplay by one of the most acclaimed playwrights/screenwriters alive) ... then I'm sure no fault can be found in anything done in the new film. And if the living lyricist, who is very much NOT the book or screenplay writer, went over the script with them and visited the set... well then, no one can have any opinion or insight that conflicts with it being perfect and flawless? Sondheim approves things and changes things in shows of his that he wrote the music to as well and were more recently written that I disagree with. Hell, Lapine isn't 90, is still working, and wrote Into the Woods... and I have several big issues with his own screenplay adaptation of his book. My opinion won't ever count toward anything with these things, certainly not over theirs, but I am nonetheless going to have my own. And it's one thing to say the author approved (though, again, Sondheim wrote the lyrics -- the aspect of the show he thinks worked the least, and when he was 25 with no experience in writing musicals properly, and that was 75 years ago... and the other authors, are dead and not weighing in...) But to present the idea that the estates gave permission as some indicator that whatever was done in the film should be deferred to... I mean, the people who control R&H's estate approved the offensive-on-all-levels animated film adaptation of The King & I... so let's not assume their approval means it's going to be good or that we have to all agree that it is good. For the record, I also think the new film is fantastic, and overall I loved it... but for many reasons, I also did not, and I think those reasons are valid and worth discussing regardless of what the estates approved or what Sondheim thinks and/or said. (I believe he thought very highly of this new movie, though I also know that he didn't as highly of the original movie or the stage show as most people did... so that ought to be considered.... but also, I don't think he ever spoke ill of any major production of his work being done while it was being done) |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 05:26 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 05:18 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chazwaza 03:11 am EST 12/26/21 | |
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| Of course, you're not ''automatically wrong.'' You have every right to your opinion of the new ''West Side Story.'' But I take issue with questioning the integrity and sincerity of Steven Spielberg and Tony Kushner, characterizing them as ''these artists who claim to be love and admire the original.'' From the various interviews I read and seen with Spielberg and Kushner, I've never doubted their genuine love for the original or their motives to bring ''West Side Story'' to a new generation. You can question their changes and choices, but I believe their intent has been pure of heart. They consulted all along the way with Sondheim, who approved of their changes and loved the movie. Obviously, you can dispute Sondheim's judgment, too, but I, for one, am happy that he enjoyed the film and got to see it before he passed. |
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| typo: *65 years (nm) | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:46 am EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chazwaza 03:11 am EST 12/26/21 | |
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| nm | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: theatreguy40 10:10 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chazwaza 08:54 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| Absolutely agree... | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 04:09 am EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chromolume 09:40 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| Eulalie again | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:29 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Pokernight 04:09 am EST 12/25/21 | |
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| Wrong show. Even though it won the Tony. | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: reed23 10:09 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chromolume 09:40 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| That's not this writer's only error. Among others, the misconception persists that Tony and Maria introduce the song "Somewhere." Tony sings a very fast, high-strung section coming out of dialogue, that leads into a mounting disquiet music, that rises higher and higher and suddenly dissolves into the beginning of the ballet, when the stage was cleared of scenery and the entire cast found itself in blazing white sunlight in a metaphoric open space ("open air.") The ballet came in four parts, beginning with the playful scherzo, in which the gang members leap and play in the wide open sun; then "Somewhere" was sung by Consuela (one of the Shark girls, obviously) – played in the original by Reri Grist. The song was followed by The Processional, in which the two gangs began to pair off with each other in a quiet parade (which was repeated, with devastating effect, at the end of the show, following Tony's death as the curtain fell.) The Nightmare section followed; coming out of this, Tony & Maria sang the last 8 bars of the song as the entire sequence came to a close. |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: theatreguy40 02:30 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - reed23 10:09 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| The Somewhere sequence (song and ballet) is brilliant and beautiful. Unfortunately the original movie didn't use it -- I'm assuming because they felt it wouldn't translate to film... And because it wasn't used in the film, the end of the movie had to change and eliminate a beautiful moment: At one point in the Ballet, a Jet and a Shark come from opposite sides of the stage and come together (join hands?) and walk to join the others for the Processional (which can easily be Tony and Maria's Wedding). Then another Jet and Shark repeat this action... then another... then another... all to sympbolize the idyllic world that Tony and Maria want so desperately. Then at the end of the show - after Tony's body is carried off -- this same sequence is repeated with the individual Jet/Shark. The thought being that maybe...MAYBE... some understanding and some redemption will occur between the two gangs...maybe. | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Indavidzopinion 11:43 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - reed23 10:09 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| The article is nit-picking of the worst kind. The film is so enjoyable. The score, conducted by Gustavo Dudamel, is so lush and beautiful. Compare it with the film from the 1960’s. Can you watch that one and not see the purple muck smeared in the faces of actors like George Chakiris, supposedly to make them look more Latin? Ansel Elgort is a big improvement on Richard Bremer. The new Anita is volcanic/ electric. The expansion of the part of the drug store owner, giving Rita Morino a chance to shine again on screen, is a gift to film-goers. | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 05:42 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Indavidzopinion 11:43 pm EST 12/24/21 | |
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| A friend of mine pointed out, rightly so I think, that the "white" guys wouldn't be hanging out at a drugstore run and owned solely by a Puerto Rican. Maybe Kushner thinks they would since Tony works there? Separately, I thought that in the scene with the lieutenant in Anita's apartment after Bernardo is killed, the lieutenant says he knows Tony is at the store. If that's the case, why don't the people just go there? Don't they know he works and lives there? Finally, is what Tony did that landed him in prison supposed to remain a mystery? |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Ann 08:29 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - AnObserver 05:42 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| But the drugstore had been owned by a white man, her late husband. And Tony went to prison for severely beating another gang member. |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 09:16 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Ann 08:29 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| Yes, I know her husband was white. So...1. then why doesn't her Puerto Rican-ness calm the guys down about Puerto Ricans?...or...2. now that her husband is dead they can be rude to her?....and/or .... 3. they are okay with hanging out at her store because they liked her husband so much but her not so much? | |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:26 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - AnObserver 09:16 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| I agree it wasn't entirely fleshed out to a point of making clear sense within the premise of the musical they were adapting... But I would compare it, as I assume they did, to people who have LGBTQ friends or family and still vote against our rights and protections and are afraid of our "lifestyle" or agenda... or the same for white people who have a black person they claim to love but compartmentalize that when it comes to how they see and treat other poc and how they vote. People are good at compartmentalizing. Perhaps the Jets saw Valentina as one of the few Puerto Ricans they were comfortable with, who wasn't try to take their territory and push them out, or see them as hoodlums (even if they act as that). Or maybe they do not see themselves as racist against Puerto Ricans, just as against what they see as people with less claim to their home turf who threaten the world they've known. They were part of communities who were dismissed or oppressed (as Irish, Polish, etc)... but can't see how they're doing the same thing. I don't think the new movie, or all its added dialogue and context, fleshed this out enough for what they needed... but... i don't think it's entirely not there. |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 11:02 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chazwaza 10:26 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| The lieutenant tells them they're from those oppressed groups, and that most of the people in those groups worked hard and got out of the ghetto. The parents of these guys are bums or unlucky and their kids are "white trash." That's part of the verbosity of the film, but in a film, that's okay, I think, because a film is less a "fantasia" than a stage show with a "dream ballet." Of course there are some films that are fantasias, but I wouldn't call this one or the 1961 film fantasias. |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:39 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - AnObserver 11:02 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| The parents of these guys are bums or unlucky and their kids are "white trash." In the stage play, this is alluded to in dialogue too, but differently, with Shrank insulting the parents right to the Jets' faces. It's not spelled out the same way as in the new film, but I think it's implied that these aren't happy families in general at all. And of course in "Krupke" there are similar allusions. |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:52 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chazwaza 10:26 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| Perhaps the Jets saw Valentina as one of the few Puerto Ricans they were comfortable with, who wasn't try to take their territory and push them out, or see them as hoodlums (even if they act as that). Valentina, though, does make it clear to Tony that she's hardly a fan of Riff. But then again, we could question Doc's feelings in the stage show - he's clearly not pro-hoodlum, but he does seem to put up with the Jets hanging out there. (Until the attempted rape of Anita, that is - and I would agree that I was very surprised that Valentina didn't kick the Jets out of the shop the same way Doc does in the show.) |
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| re: "Chatty" West Side Story | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:28 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chromolume 10:52 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| I think we might reasonably surmise that Doc is a bit afraid of them. Also, I think it's not necessarily clear how often they hang out there. I think it's also quite possible that he saw most of them regularly in the store when they were kids, and he may have had fondness for most or all of them from that time. And it seems that the Jets may have seemed fairly harmless until pretty recently. I think we may also be able to read a bit into Doc clearly have been written as Jewish. The role was created by an actor who had been blacklisted. Not that the audience would have necessarily known the latter, and that actor didn't stay with the show all that long, but I think we can perhaps glean from these things that Doc was meant to be seen as someone who leans left, that he is what Archie Bunker would have called a bleeding heart liberal, and he may even have hoped he might have a positive influence on them when he saw them starting to go in a violent, borderline criminal direction. And then he saw he was wrong. I think all of these things, or some combination, might be part of an actor's choices, but his being a bit (or more than a bit) afraid of them by itself is quite enough. |
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| Exquisite film | |
| Posted by: peter3053 02:38 am EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: "Chatty" West Side Story - Chromolume 10:52 pm EST 12/25/21 | |
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| I think the new movie is beautiful and deeply affecting, in spite of the slight disjunction between the more realistic dialogue and the still heightened musical material. I think one could count on four and a half fingers the moments that could be improved; for example, slightly sending up the start of "Maria", as if they didn't trust the material (yes, we all know the story about the writing and Robbins' response to it); and trying to create false tension at the start of "Tonight" by having Tony on the plank; Anita's slightly off emotional dimension at the start of "A Boy Like That" (although she made up for it in spades as the tears flowed - I just thought her anger at the start needed to be teary anger as well - she should be trembling with conflicted feelings from the start ... anger and grief altogether. Also, the pull back of the camera at the end of that number as the girls looked out was stagey, something the film avoided so well the rest of the time.) But the film was gripping and the tragedy terrible to relive. I thought "One Hand One Heart" and the setting for it, and especially her singing in it, was sublime. And all the ideas in the "America" sequence were startlingly to the point. And they did what I expected re "I Feel Pretty" ... using a word from the song in one of the department store advertisements to suggest where Maria got her added lyrical sophistication from in the number. (I thought the word would be "charming" ... it was another. So many wonderful and painful and powerful things ... you felt the power the show would have had originally. An intense and beautiful experience. And it's hard seeing it with a covid mask on ... wiping nose and tears gets difficult ... and nobody wants to be near a sniffle!!! |
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| re: Exquisite film | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 10:00 am EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: Exquisite film - peter3053 02:38 am EST 12/26/21 | |
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| I kept thinking how much better it would have been if Fosse had directed it. We would have seen the dancing and the editing, not just the editing. And he would have found the characters and story and mood in the editing. Now "Cool" is camera choreography (and editing) around a gun. "Cool" in the 1961 film is one of the highlights. The new version has very little dancing. | |
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| re: Exquisite film | |
| Posted by: peter3053 03:50 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Exquisite film - AnObserver 10:00 am EST 12/26/21 | |
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| Fosse, yes, but he may not have succeeded with the simpler more delicate moments, the spiritual dimension of their love. I thought one of the things Kushner articulated well was the idea that, with love, one sees the essence of the person, not what they appear, not what divides; the best of human nature finds the best of human nature; and we see we are all one family. Because WSS is a tightrope act between realism of content and expressionism of style, every attempt to do it will wobble in places ... but it doesn't make it any less of an astonishing work of art. I think the use of Cool in this film worked in the new way, dramatically - the need for tony to stop the fight and certainly stop any chance of killing. I loved the way, too, the gun represented a larger dimension of the film, a reflection on the Cold War ("mutually assured destruction") - which seems to have been a part of the thinking in the original creation of the piece, and the era. |
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| re: Exquisite film | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:10 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Exquisite film - peter3053 03:50 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
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| I had the opposite reaction: in this version of "Cool", Tony has ample opportunities to throw the gun away and doesn't. Instead, he takes it from Riff, tells Riff not to use it, and then... dangles it there for Riff to take? Because, what, he's not really dedicated to keeping the peace? Because he's so torn between these two worlds that he can only halfheartedly attempt to prevent the apocalypse? (Which, that latter version maybe could work, but it could have used a clearer staging to tell that story). "Cool" in the film is one of a string of moments that turn Tony from a hapless guy caught up in a difficult situation to a hot-blooded murderer who does indeed kill Maria's brother both viciously and intentionally. It makes for a more complicated drama, but for me it undercut the ending: this time around, I was thoroughly in agreement with Anita and felt like the smartest thing Maria could do would be to let Tony leave without her. |
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| re: Exquisite film | |
| Posted by: peter3053 06:49 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Exquisite film - Singapore/Fling 06:10 pm EST 12/26/21 | |
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| I'd have to see it again, but isn't Tony trying to get Riff to see reason and make the choice himself not to use the gun; in other words, it wasn't just about the gun, but about changing an outlook. Also, I think the gun got back in the hands of the gang and so the latter part of the dance was trying to get it back when the earlier strategy clearly hadn't worked... I think. By the way, do you notice how, years later, Toby was cornered by the police at the end of Sweeney, although he was the least responsible for the killings, and, in a similar way (not the same) Chino at the end of WSS? And both shows had chase sequences towards the end. Some tropes endure.... |
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