Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Chino (re: I had a similar thought (Spoilers) Tracking the gun | |
| Posted by: toros 03:28 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Chino (re: I had a similar thought (Spoilers) - theatreguy40 03:09 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| I agree that it's worth thinking about the "improvements," but it's important to think about them carefully. For example, you say that "the long dull sequence of Riff getting the gun - just so it can be justified how Chino ends up with the gun at the end." It's much more interesting than that. Following the purchase of the gun is "Cool," which is reimagined completely as a scene where Tony gets hold of the gun that Riff just bought. The choreography is all about gaining conrol of the gun. Not only that, but the lyric, "got a rocket in your pocket" refers to the gun directly, as Tony references it when he sings that line. Tracking the path of the gun from its purchase by Riff, to Tony getting hold of it in Cool, to the Jets getting it back during the song, to Chino picking it up after Riff and Bernardo are killed, to Maria taking it from him, and finally, to Valentina picking it up and holding it as she's arm and arm with Chino in the movie's final image is very thoughtfully articulated in the film. | |
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| i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:54 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Chino (re: I had a similar thought (Spoilers) Tracking the gun - toros 03:28 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| The final image would have been great if it had been left at the kids carrying off the body, and Valentina arm and arm with Chino having picked up the gun. But that isn't the final image, the final image is the police car pulling up with lights on and Valentina standing there in the street with Chino as they await the police getting out of the car as the others go into the drug store. Baffled that the way the want this to end is Valentina assisting one of the Puerto Rican kids, one of many responsible for all this, to be arrested while they others go inside. If she had walked him inside with the gun and then the police arrive, fine. Everyone protecting each other against the police even after such violence. But for her of all people to be willfully presenting Chino to the police, with the murder weapon for one of the murders (not all). I just don't get the message they are sending about these characters or the movie's message. A very odd image and note to go out on. Not very "there's a place for us" of her. |
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| Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene | |
| Last Edit: jeffef 12:17 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: jeffef 12:14 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| We did a great production in the early 1970’s. Our director had a brilliant, IMO, final moment. Both the sharks and jets walked off in opposite directions leaving Tony lying on the ground with only Maria crying over him. This is great ending, since we were then and still are fighting divisive cultures. The image was powerful and showed that violence does not solve and never will bring people together. |
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| re: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene | |
| Posted by: Ordoc 05:12 am EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene - jeffef 12:14 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| Sorry, but your director violated the copyright. Did he/she get permission to change the ending? The ending in the script is how the authors wanted/intended the musical to end! | |
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| re: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:27 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene - Ordoc 05:12 am EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Sorry, but your director violated the copyright. Did he/she get permission to change the ending? The ending in the script is how the authors wanted/intended the musical to end! Not quite. I think that only matters if actual text spoken or sung by the cast is changed. Stage directions don't hold the same kind of weight - and certainly as long as the director doesn't change the essential truth of the scene. (For instance, putting Annie back in the orphanage at the end of that show - that went too far from the original intention.) That said, some directors go too far in terms of literally ignoring the printed stage directions because they were somehow taught that is what they should do. I was doing rehearsal piano once for a college production of How To Succeed, and I remember watching the young director at one point literally whiting out all the stage directions in her script. So - the show lacked its final original punchline, because it's only in the stage directions. As the cast sings "for the departed we shed a mournful tear," we're supposed to see Frump outside washing the windows, just as Finch had done at the top of the show. But since that was ignored, the lyric went for nothing, and the final clever joke of the show never happened. Was that "violating copyright?" No. But it was stupidity, because the director seemed to think that the stage directions simply didn't matter, period. She didn't look at the original intention and say, "I think I have another way of making this work" - she just had no idea what she was doing. |
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| re: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:25 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:17 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music final scene - jeffef 12:14 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I do like that. Though I will say I think the creators wanted, rightfully, to leave the audience with an emotionally cathartic moment of hope after so much darkness. The idea that the gangs could be coming together even if just to carry off this dead body doesn't assume they will stop waring for ever or ever get along, I find it to be without the saccharine falseness that might be at the ending of a musical with this kind of issue... at least if done well. I wonder how it would feel to watch the ending you guys did in the 70s. I could easily see a director today changing the end so that after the gangs walk off (together or separately), and then... lights change slightly, and Anybodies or someone else, or a random younger kid off the street we haven't identified before, picks up the gun off the street and looks at it intently. I would hate this ending, but it seems to be exactly the cliche sentiment (in several contexts) tacked onto the end of shows with ambiguous or possibly "problematic" endings. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| In reply to: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| So, Valentina should have let Chino go? I'm not sure I understand. | |
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| Eh. (more spoilers) | |
| Posted by: wizrdofoz27 07:41 pm EST 01/01/22 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| Two questions come up for me over reading this discussion: Would this Chino have turned himself into the police if Valentina hadn't stood with him? I'm about 50/50 yes/no. Was I the only one who found the 2021 ending quite suspenseful in the "are the police going to shoot the Puerto Rican woman holding a gun" sense? It reminded me of another movie ending from a couple years ago that I won't name lest I spoil that too! |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:52 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:51 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| I'm not sure I understand the question you're asking... but I think the answer is a resounding yes. "Let him go" isn't really the point, but they should both have gone inside her drug store. She shouldn't be walking him to his arrest, and arrest which, unless I'm forgetting something, is not inevitable. The cops don't know who killed Tony. It just happened. They don't even know what happened right? And also this is of such little consequence to the police. I don't think in this moment Valentina's thought is to turn in a struggling Puerto Rican kid to the racist cops for a mistake that was revenge for a mistake Tony made himself first. And as the only adult in the situation, perhaps she could take a little of the blame on her shoulders and save this kid from what is surely life in prison, this kid who barely had a chance anyway. But regardless of what she'd do, I don't get why the filmmakers chose to have the last image be her standing there to present Chino to the police. Especially in a WSS made specifically for today. Seems oddly lacking in perspective. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: den 12:13 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 01:51 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I thought what motivated Valentina was her affection for Tony. There is clearly a strong bond between them, and his death leaves her with no choice on a personal level. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:26 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:22 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - den 12:13 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I'm sure I'm being redundant to say, but I definitely don't agree. After what she's seen with the sharks and jets... after the rape scene... after what Anita screams at her (calling her a traitor to her people, etc)... after seeing all that's happened and knowing that Bernardo was killed BY Tony... and being who she is, a Puerto Rican immigrant widow in a demolished neighborhood with racist cops... I'm sorry I just do not buy for a second that she felt she was left with no choice, nor do I understand an audience who watches this play out and thinks she was left with no choice morally or emotionally. Clearly Spielberg and perhaps Kushner agree with you. I'd love to ask them about this. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:36 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 02:22 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| Clearly Spielberg and perhaps Kushner agree with you. I'd love to ask them about this. Even more, it would be great to hear Moreno's take on the ending. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:06 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 02:36 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I wouldn't say more, I'd also like to hear from non-white audiences about it. I think if anything she has a very unique perspective as a person on all levels, so I want her take but I also want the authors and the audiences. Since she is an executive producer who is a very respected legend, who tells the story of her discomfort with the opening lyrics of "America" and her relief that they were changed, and her experience being accused of being racist when made to wear darker make up... so I have every reason to believe that if she was bothered by the final image she would have said something and if her feeling persisted they'd have changed it. Deference to the Oscar-winning legendary and only-Puerto Rican from the original movie seems to have been very real on this movie. All that is to say that I'm open to being convinced by Moreno or Spielberg or Kushner about why they chose this final image and what they'd say to my issues with it... but if I hear Rita say she likes the ending without a convincing explanation that satisfies my issues, I wouldn't just defer. I still think these are issues with the moment, whether Rita or the filmmakers see it that way or not (obviously they don't or they wouldn't have conceived of this new final image and kept it). Perhaps it's possible they could have been convinced of my issues with it and changed it at script stage, but sadly I wasn't asked for notes before the final cut was made. ;) |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Ordoc 05:19 am EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 03:06 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| Sometimes, when a person is in shock, they something without thinking. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:28 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Ordoc 05:19 am EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Sometimes, when a person is in shock, they something without thinking. Were you in shock when you posted this, lol? :-) |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:08 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Ordoc 05:19 am EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Very true, but that doesn't seem how it was played out at all. We can infer all we want, I don't buy that that was the reason for her in that moment. If they wanted that to be clear they would have spelled it out more even visually... this movie doesn't exactly shy away from that. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:49 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 02:08 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| And if it were what they intended us to understand, that in a state of shock she wants Chino to turn himself in and stays with him to deliver him to the racist police in the very racist system after the lives of 3 of these troubled kids were ended already... let's assume that was what was happening... Why do they want that to be the final image and final thought of the movie? I can see it as part of the movie, part of the scene... but the VERY LAST THING? I don't get it. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:04 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 01:51 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I'll have to think about what you've written and consider all that. But my initial reaction to what I saw in the film and to your post is that IMO, Valentina made the only decision she felt was responsible - to take Chino to the police, and face the consequences of the murder. I'm not sure that the revenge motive counts for much - though assumedly the cops (even if biased as you point out) would assumedly sort that out later. I also don't think that any of the other boys, on either side, would be safe from investigation etc. But ultimately - and you have every right to disagree, - I get the sense that Valentina was trying to do the right thing by turning Chino in. Or at least what she felt was right in the moment. You know what really bothered me, though? Why two shots? It's only one shot in the stage show (and I have a rather personal connection to that moment, which I can write about later) - I felt the 2nd shot weakened the moment. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:13 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:10 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 02:04 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| All I can say is, imagine what another poor brown immigrant would think of Valentina making the choice to turn Chino in in that moment, for that specific crime, to those cops in this neighbors. There's a reason non-white and economically struggling people generally involve the police as little as possible no matter what happened. I can't imagine how in that moment Valentina as we know her, given what she's been through in her life, and what she's been through in the last 24 hours with these kids and these senseless losses of life, would be thinking that it is her responsibility to turn in Chino... especially when she absolutely didn't have to. When the police would have little way of knowing what happened or who did it, or that Valentina was there. Her responsibility is to these lost teens struggling to figure out their place in this world through oppression and poverty etc etc... at this moment more than ever I think she'd understand her responsibility is to get involved to give a safe space to them now that the fighting is over, and to not insert herself by aiding the racist police. But no matter what either of us think about this moment or Valentina's mindset... I sincerely doubt that the POC communities this film is aimed toward welcoming to this musical want to see that character make that choice... an oppressed brown woman turning in an oppressed brown teenager to the police. I'm honestly surprised I haven't heard or read any blow back about that. Maybe I'm overestimating it, or maybe white people are the majority of the people seeing it... but I'm sure a lot of "woke" white people are seeing it, and it just seems so tone deaf in this time we're in to end the movie on that note. I agree about the 2nd shot. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:40 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 02:10 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| All of this is food for thought, Thanks. About the gunshot - I've probably told this story before, but...the first time I did the show, I was still in high school, playing in the pit for a summer youth production. This was in the early 80's, and the orchestra parts at the time were most certainly facsimiles of the originals. (Since then, MTI has done new, computerized sets.) In the pit piano part, at the a cappella "Somewhere" reprise where Tony dies, was a note that the pianist should play Maria's starting pitch at the same time as the gunshot, and then again very very softly before she sings, if needed. Obviously the idea was to "sneak" her the note during that loud moment. Which was a very cool responsibility lol, but it was also annoying, as I then really had to concentrate on watching for the gun to go off, instead of being able to "get into" the scene. But it was fun to be involved in that moment nevertheless. Since that time, in the newer parts, that instruction is gone, so now I feel like doing that was a part of the show's history that's gone away. If I ever get to do the show again, and it made sense to do, I would definitely put that note back in. :-) In any case, as a result, I know a secret about that gunshot - always with a hint of piano D# underneath it - that most people would have no idea about. ;-) |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:47 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 02:40 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I wonder why that instruction has been taken out... seems very reasonable to do that for the singer. | |
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| an actual baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:29 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:28 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| Back in 2004, I saw the Trinity Rep production of West Side Story. Admittedly, I was dragged to it - it was an Amanda Dehnert "concept" production, and I really wasn't all that enthused. But then I really started to get hooked on it. Part of the "concept" was that the ensemble played everyone depending on the scene - meaning that sometimes they were all Jets, or all Sharks, or some combination - but it was fluid in that sense. But Dehnert and the choreographer found ways to make that stage language make visual sense right away, and I found myself buying into it. Tony Yazbek played Tony, and was very good. There was another part of the visual concept. The rather empty unit set was "titled" by having cast members spray white paint, graffiti-like, on the set. ("Doc's Drugstore" perhaps, or "The Dress Shop" etc.) It gave the feeling of someone spraypainting on the road or a vacant lot, and it worked. Until the last moments of the show. For which I still want my money back, sorry to say. As I recall, there was something akin to the customary procession at the end, carrying Tony's body off. But then in the last section of the music, the spraypainters appeared again. This time with color paint - and they very quickly painted a complete beautiful colorful replica of the production's logo. Which made no real sense, and robbed everyone of the dramatic impact of the last scene. It was a visual "coup de theatre" in a sense, but it was completely unwarranted and unsatisfying, and didn't match the tone of the show's ending. Much as I had enjoyed the bulk of the production, this left me with a sort of "I told you so" feeling about Dehnert's concept productions. As if, "forget about the show and the plight of the characters at the end - look what we can do with the set!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!" This from the theatre and director that got a cease-and-desist notice after trying to change the ending of Annie the year before this (by having Annie back in the orphanage after all - "it was all a dream"). As I recall, they were forced to restore the proper ending. |
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| re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc | |
| Posted by: bmc 11:41 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: an actual baffling misstep... - Chromolume 11:28 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| Edward Albee ran across in interview( I think) about \someone who said I'm looking forward to bringing MY vision of TINY ALICE to the stage. Albee replied TINY ALICE is my play, if you have a vision, write yer own dem play(or something like that' ), I Remembered being shocked when a director/dramaturg wrote about their vision for THE GERSHWIN'S PORGY &(sic) Bess, and i was relieved when SJS put his two cents in in the next Sunday times. It's one thing to have a new vision for MACBETH and another to have a new vision of someone else's play, where the copyright has yet to expire. . |
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| re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc | |
| Posted by: writerkev 05:37 am EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc - bmc 11:41 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| Maybe we’re talking semantics, but every director has a vision for a play. They must. That’s what they offer as interpretive artists. If no vision, then what? | |
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| re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:16 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc - writerkev 05:37 am EST 12/31/21 | |
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| I'm not sure this is true when you're not directing the original. Many directors (and producers) seem to think that a vision that is *new* or *alternative* is the reason to mount the play, rather than the play itself. Especially with a non-musical, a lot of times the play just needs a director who wants to direct the play, not impose their own "vision" on it. Obviously you always want to be able to see how the play will look and play, and why it would look that way or be staged that way, you want a cohesive vision for it as a whole, serving the text, and you need to execute that. But that's not the same as what is often meant by a director's "vision", so I understand Albee's sentiments. |
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| re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc | |
| Posted by: StanS 05:55 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: an actual baffling misstep.../ MY vision of WSS or TINY ALICE etc - Chazwaza 02:16 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Even if the director just wants to "direct the play", the written script cannot give everything. There are always choices to make, or all such productions would be the same. Those choices must come from a coherent "vision", or whatever word you want to use. | |
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