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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:52 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:51 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 12/29/21 | |
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| I'm not sure I understand the question you're asking... but I think the answer is a resounding yes. "Let him go" isn't really the point, but they should both have gone inside her drug store. She shouldn't be walking him to his arrest, and arrest which, unless I'm forgetting something, is not inevitable. The cops don't know who killed Tony. It just happened. They don't even know what happened right? And also this is of such little consequence to the police. I don't think in this moment Valentina's thought is to turn in a struggling Puerto Rican kid to the racist cops for a mistake that was revenge for a mistake Tony made himself first. And as the only adult in the situation, perhaps she could take a little of the blame on her shoulders and save this kid from what is surely life in prison, this kid who barely had a chance anyway. But regardless of what she'd do, I don't get why the filmmakers chose to have the last image be her standing there to present Chino to the police. Especially in a WSS made specifically for today. Seems oddly lacking in perspective. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: den 12:13 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 01:51 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I thought what motivated Valentina was her affection for Tony. There is clearly a strong bond between them, and his death leaves her with no choice on a personal level. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:26 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:22 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - den 12:13 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I'm sure I'm being redundant to say, but I definitely don't agree. After what she's seen with the sharks and jets... after the rape scene... after what Anita screams at her (calling her a traitor to her people, etc)... after seeing all that's happened and knowing that Bernardo was killed BY Tony... and being who she is, a Puerto Rican immigrant widow in a demolished neighborhood with racist cops... I'm sorry I just do not buy for a second that she felt she was left with no choice, nor do I understand an audience who watches this play out and thinks she was left with no choice morally or emotionally. Clearly Spielberg and perhaps Kushner agree with you. I'd love to ask them about this. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:36 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 02:22 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| Clearly Spielberg and perhaps Kushner agree with you. I'd love to ask them about this. Even more, it would be great to hear Moreno's take on the ending. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:06 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 02:36 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I wouldn't say more, I'd also like to hear from non-white audiences about it. I think if anything she has a very unique perspective as a person on all levels, so I want her take but I also want the authors and the audiences. Since she is an executive producer who is a very respected legend, who tells the story of her discomfort with the opening lyrics of "America" and her relief that they were changed, and her experience being accused of being racist when made to wear darker make up... so I have every reason to believe that if she was bothered by the final image she would have said something and if her feeling persisted they'd have changed it. Deference to the Oscar-winning legendary and only-Puerto Rican from the original movie seems to have been very real on this movie. All that is to say that I'm open to being convinced by Moreno or Spielberg or Kushner about why they chose this final image and what they'd say to my issues with it... but if I hear Rita say she likes the ending without a convincing explanation that satisfies my issues, I wouldn't just defer. I still think these are issues with the moment, whether Rita or the filmmakers see it that way or not (obviously they don't or they wouldn't have conceived of this new final image and kept it). Perhaps it's possible they could have been convinced of my issues with it and changed it at script stage, but sadly I wasn't asked for notes before the final cut was made. ;) |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Ordoc 05:19 am EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 03:06 pm EST 12/30/21 | |
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| Sometimes, when a person is in shock, they something without thinking. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:28 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Ordoc 05:19 am EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Sometimes, when a person is in shock, they something without thinking. Were you in shock when you posted this, lol? :-) |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:08 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Ordoc 05:19 am EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Very true, but that doesn't seem how it was played out at all. We can infer all we want, I don't buy that that was the reason for her in that moment. If they wanted that to be clear they would have spelled it out more even visually... this movie doesn't exactly shy away from that. | |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:49 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 02:08 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| And if it were what they intended us to understand, that in a state of shock she wants Chino to turn himself in and stays with him to deliver him to the racist police in the very racist system after the lives of 3 of these troubled kids were ended already... let's assume that was what was happening... Why do they want that to be the final image and final thought of the movie? I can see it as part of the movie, part of the scene... but the VERY LAST THING? I don't get it. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:04 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 01:51 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I'll have to think about what you've written and consider all that. But my initial reaction to what I saw in the film and to your post is that IMO, Valentina made the only decision she felt was responsible - to take Chino to the police, and face the consequences of the murder. I'm not sure that the revenge motive counts for much - though assumedly the cops (even if biased as you point out) would assumedly sort that out later. I also don't think that any of the other boys, on either side, would be safe from investigation etc. But ultimately - and you have every right to disagree, - I get the sense that Valentina was trying to do the right thing by turning Chino in. Or at least what she felt was right in the moment. You know what really bothered me, though? Why two shots? It's only one shot in the stage show (and I have a rather personal connection to that moment, which I can write about later) - I felt the 2nd shot weakened the moment. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:13 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:10 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 02:04 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| All I can say is, imagine what another poor brown immigrant would think of Valentina making the choice to turn Chino in in that moment, for that specific crime, to those cops in this neighbors. There's a reason non-white and economically struggling people generally involve the police as little as possible no matter what happened. I can't imagine how in that moment Valentina as we know her, given what she's been through in her life, and what she's been through in the last 24 hours with these kids and these senseless losses of life, would be thinking that it is her responsibility to turn in Chino... especially when she absolutely didn't have to. When the police would have little way of knowing what happened or who did it, or that Valentina was there. Her responsibility is to these lost teens struggling to figure out their place in this world through oppression and poverty etc etc... at this moment more than ever I think she'd understand her responsibility is to get involved to give a safe space to them now that the fighting is over, and to not insert herself by aiding the racist police. But no matter what either of us think about this moment or Valentina's mindset... I sincerely doubt that the POC communities this film is aimed toward welcoming to this musical want to see that character make that choice... an oppressed brown woman turning in an oppressed brown teenager to the police. I'm honestly surprised I haven't heard or read any blow back about that. Maybe I'm overestimating it, or maybe white people are the majority of the people seeing it... but I'm sure a lot of "woke" white people are seeing it, and it just seems so tone deaf in this time we're in to end the movie on that note. I agree about the 2nd shot. |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:40 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chazwaza 02:10 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| All of this is food for thought, Thanks. About the gunshot - I've probably told this story before, but...the first time I did the show, I was still in high school, playing in the pit for a summer youth production. This was in the early 80's, and the orchestra parts at the time were most certainly facsimiles of the originals. (Since then, MTI has done new, computerized sets.) In the pit piano part, at the a cappella "Somewhere" reprise where Tony dies, was a note that the pianist should play Maria's starting pitch at the same time as the gunshot, and then again very very softly before she sings, if needed. Obviously the idea was to "sneak" her the note during that loud moment. Which was a very cool responsibility lol, but it was also annoying, as I then really had to concentrate on watching for the gun to go off, instead of being able to "get into" the scene. But it was fun to be involved in that moment nevertheless. Since that time, in the newer parts, that instruction is gone, so now I feel like doing that was a part of the show's history that's gone away. If I ever get to do the show again, and it made sense to do, I would definitely put that note back in. :-) In any case, as a result, I know a secret about that gunshot - always with a hint of piano D# underneath it - that most people would have no idea about. ;-) |
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| re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:47 am EST 12/30/21 | |
| In reply to: re: i found the final image of film to be a baffling misstep... - Chromolume 02:40 am EST 12/30/21 | |
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| I wonder why that instruction has been taken out... seems very reasonable to do that for the singer. | |
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