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| re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:50 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:38 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers - Ann 02:34 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| I don't know why Sondheim never apparently would ok a production with Bobby being a closeted gay man, perhaps out to one or a few other characters. I think it would have worked without having to have very much rewriting from the original, much less than with making Bobbi a woman, and it might explain an awful lot of his hesitancy -- he's just dating, sleeping with and being set up with the wrong people. Plus he hasn't had role models in these straight couples that he can see how a gay couple could make a go of things. That also depends if this is set in 1970, in the 1980s at the start of the AIDS crisis, or after gay marriage is legal in the US. Perhaps if they made one of the couples gay could be one way of dealing with having some kind of real role model for him to somehow see that as a possibility for him. He could be bi, too, but that would complicate things, but then again, Sondheim usually rather liked some complexity in his work, being as he was into creating and sometimes solving puzzles. The character of Bobby is a real puzzle all right, still not easily solved. One problem with the concept of the show: I know couples who when they marry will drop singles as friends; it's not that unusual actually. They don't want a third-wheel or perhaps competition for their spouse's attention. For Bobby or Bobbi, they might have 1 or 2 couples with whom they might still socialize (especially with a date along), but having a whole bunch of couples (and not many single platonic friends) is just not very believable, though the songs are so great we tend to just go along with them for the ride of the show. |
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| as a single man with married friends... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 12:00 am EST 01/02/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:58 pm EST 01/01/22 | |
| In reply to: re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers - PlayWiz 05:38 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Responding to the 2nd part of that post... I am a single man in my mid 30s with man married couples as friends, straight and gay, and I can assure you that it is not in the LEAST BIT hard to believe that the couples haven't "dropped" Bobby from their social life. My friends haven't and they seem to show no sign of that. If anything I think a lot of couples like having single friends too because it is interesting and different than just other married couples or married people with kids. My married friends are always interested in hearing stories from my dating and sex life, and the life I lead that allows me to travel and adventure etc. I don't know why you think it's so common and understandable and expected that married couples "drop" single friends... and I can't speak to 1970, or before or after it until the 2010s, but it certainly it's accurate today. I also think the text makes it very clear that these people like Bobby and care about Bobby, that they have friendships. You don't just drop a friendship because your life becomes that of a couple or a parent. You may have less time for them but also most of these couples are NYC couples who socialize and don't have kids. As for part 1 of this post, I think it works as well or better for Bobby to be gay, and I also think the original version works as well or better if Bobby were in the closet and Being Alive is him opening the door to coming out. But as for Company working present day, non-period piece, I have said to anyone who'll listen that not only do I think a gay Bobby works, but that gay Bobby with *gay coupled friends* is probably the *best* and perhaps only way the show actually and really works for current day. I think single gay men in their mid/late 30s today (7 years into gay marriage being legal, etc) are currently where single straight men of that age range were in 1970, in terms of what is assumed/expected by friends and community, what they expect or hope for for themselves, what their friends are doing, the likelihood of having so many coupled friends... the situations, the characters, the conflicts, the songs... they are seem EXTREMELY close to what my life as a single gay man in my mid/late 30s is like and much less relevant or interesting for a straight Bobby or a female Bobby. |
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| re: as a single man with married friends... | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:16 am EST 01/02/22 | |
| In reply to: as a single man with married friends... - Chazwaza 11:58 pm EST 01/01/22 | |
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| " You don't just drop a friendship because your life becomes that of a couple or a parent. " It happens, and it sucks. There's at least one other poster on this thread who concurs. But you're fortunate. I don't know why Sondheim and the others fought against productions making Bobby gay. It would, yes, work better with surrounding couples both gay and straight. To a lesbian couple, a gay guy isn't usually a threat. To some gay couples, a single gay guy might men possibly play around if they are open and he is up for it (and somehow acknowledges to at least them that he is gay, even if otherwise to other couples he is closeted). Or he just might be a great friend, and they'd be interested in hearing about his social and/or sex life. Among other kinds of permutations, it would just make a more plausible show. |
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| re: as a single man with married friends... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 03:30 am EST 01/02/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:27 am EST 01/02/22 | |
| In reply to: re: as a single man with married friends... - PlayWiz 12:16 am EST 01/02/22 | |
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| I don't think Bobby should be not a threat sexually, just not trying to be one... despite the lyrics from the couples "who's always a flirt, but never a threat" (flirting is only flirting if there's a theoretical sexual compatibility anyway, so that should be there), which I don't think is meant to confirm that he *could* never, just that it is not what these friendships are. Also, Someone Is Waiting has to be able friends that are potential partners for Bobby whether a straight male with women, or gay male with men (or straight woman with men)... not to mention that in the original, at least one of the coupled friends, Amy, is someone Bobby had something with in the past, no? My pitch is it be gay male Bobby and all gay male couples... maybe a bi couple or poly... and we not worry about the "threat" of him being an attractive man around other gay men, welcome to gay life. Gay men with gay male friends (very very common, be they coupled or not) always have the potential of sexual attraction to each other *and* the potential to act on it. Friendships are not barred because that could happen. It should be a present factor though especially in friendship with Joanne (whatever the gay male version would be... Jonah?), where a sexual chemistry they've never acted on, even an unlikely one, is part of what makes the interested in being friends, part of the dynamic... hence the line "when are we gonna make it?" A very believable and common thing in gay male friendships. And propositioning a friend when drunk if you're gay often doesnt' even come with adultery strings, because so many gay couples are open or willing to accept sex as not the biblical dealbreaker straight marriages tend to (or pretend to) see it as. |
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| re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:08 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers - PlayWiz 05:38 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| I think it would have worked without having to have very much rewriting from the original But the original really has nothing in it to give the idea of a closeted Bobby a lot of tangible support. Aside from the very short scene with Peter, which was added in revival. I think you absolutely would have to do some significant rewriting to make that a more compelling part of the plot. |
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| re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 09:28 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 09:20 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers - Chromolume 09:08 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| He may not be given support, but the way a good, well-directed male Bobby could play it, turning away from his friends at times from embarrassment or aggravation, squirming when they suggest he get a girlfriend, the three single girls originally already wondering if he was gay (ok, Sondheim took out the offending word), but still... there are ways for a good actor to play conflicted without having to resort to obvious stereotypical non-masculine ways. Some rewriting I still think would work better than other sexes being assigned different songs and/or vocal parts to accommodate a female Bobby. Again, I know others (and have been myself) dropped when a female friend got married and I was single. I have one married couple friend who the wife has told me that the husband is really gay, some gay couples and lots of single friends gay and straight. Having so many married couples for a single person is really not that believable -- what the hell do they really have in common? They've done the singles thing and met their mate already. That's behind them, like one reason why some older folks don't want to date a younger person for an extended time past the sexual attraction (some of the thinking being "been there, done that" in their life experience). | |
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| Couples will drop singles as friends | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 07:45 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: My Company rant in general - not targeted to you, kidmanboy - with staging spoilers - PlayWiz 05:38 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Boy is that ever true. I always thought this seeing Company over the years. Woman are stronger and more loyal to their female friends. Well, men are definitely another story. I've mentioned this over the years to others and they are always in agreement. | |
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| re: Couples will drop singles as friends | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 08:27 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:21 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
| In reply to: Couples will drop singles as friends - FinalPerformance 07:45 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| Women who marry might retain some their single girl friends, but I think the married one will seldom want to get together with the singleton when she's out with her own husband, unless the single one has a date. Lots of husbands have cheated with good friends of their wives over the years. Lots of film noirs on this subject, to say nothing of melodramas. It's unfortunately easier to drop the sing friend and concentrate on making friends with other couples and later, couples who are having babies. Will & Grace type relations have dropped the "Will" when he Grace gets married too --- and other permutations, gay and straight. At least one in the couple doesn't want possible competition, and they don't want straying attention of their partner. |
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| re: Couples will drop singles as friends | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:06 am EST 01/02/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Couples will drop singles as friends - PlayWiz 08:21 pm EST 12/31/21 | |
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| This seems to be a very very antiquated view of things, and the references you're using to support it make that clear. This is of course true for some friendships, but it is by no means a rule. As I wrote in my reply to the original post claiming this, this is very much not my experience. Yes coupled friends often want/need coupled friends. But they like their single friends too. AND worth noting that single friends I think often phase out married friends, or let it fade, because they have way less in common after the friends are married more than a year or two, and especially if the couple has kids... they are looking to spend their free time with other single people, doing things single people can do (like out meeting other single people or couples who like being out). Just the need to pay for a babysitter to leave the house often means the single person only gets to hang out with the couple if they go to their home and spend time with the kid too or wait till they're asleep -- which is great but a limited experience sometimes. So it's not just the married couple "dropping" the single friend. But I see more justification for Bobby being in demand by the couples than not. |
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