Threaded Order Chronological Order
| what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:45 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
|
|
|
| How could one of the modern musical theater's most beloved and acclaimed writers have so many musicals that never got a NYC production and/or are rarely/never produced after their premiere? I'm talking about: -The Royal Family of Broadway with book by Tony Winner Rachel Sheinkin, and before her book a book by Richard Greenberg premiered at Barrington Stage... then nothing -Little Miss Sunshine with book by James Lapine premiered in La Jolla and mounted at 2nd Stage in NYC... then nothing. -Muscle book by James Lapine (and lyrics by Ellen Fitzhugh) premiered in Chicago... then nothing. -Romance in Hard Times premiered at The Public in 1989... then nothing. -Sizzle ... from 1971, his first musical, done at Williams College. I'd think there'd have been interest in recording it for college productions at least. even the scores that have albums... there's no love or fanfare about them in the musical nerd community, at least nothing very vocal. perhaps there are others he wrote scores for that I haven't even heard of. But I for one would love to hear Royal Family and Muscle and Sizzle. There is a cast album of Little Miss Sunshine but somehow I still haven't listened to it, but I also have heard almost nothing about it despite two high profile fairly recent productions and an album. He's not a very prolific writer compared to most of his contemporaries (the one exceptional being Guettel)... but it's a shame so many of his shows, especially more recent ones, have happened with little fanfare or success. I'm left to assume they just weren't very good or very interesting? |
|
| reply to this message |
| He needs to work with a rigorous director to shape his shows | |
| Posted by: NoPeopleLike 07:53 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 10:45 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
|
|
|
| Otherwise, they are a mess. | |
| reply to this message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:54 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 10:45 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
|
|
|
| I saw Muscle over 20 years ago on 7/15/2001 at Truman College in Chicago -- it was produced by Pegasus Players. It was mildly interesting, but not particularly memorable. I also saw Little Miss Sunshine at 2nd Stage in the fall of 2013. It was enjoyable, but nowhere near as good as the delightful 2006 film. Small, non-profit theaters that try to stage shows like the ones you list would most likely lose their ass. I'm rather puzzled that someone like you who obviously works in theatre doesn't understand this fact. I enjoy reading your posts, but this particular one seems awfully naive. No offense intended. Through a crazy set of circumstances (which I detailed on ATC several years ago), Jesse Tyler Ferguson took me backstage at Circle in the Square to meet Finn. We had a great conversation talking about the various Chicago productions of some of his musicals. He was refreshingly frank with me critiquing the various theaters that staged them. I love many of Finn's musicals (In Trousers; A New Brain; Falsettos; Spelling Bee; Elegies: A Song Cycle; Make Me a Song) and I will always be grateful to him for taking the time to chat with me. However, much of his work just does not appeal to a mass audience. I wish it did. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:51 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:41 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - BroadwayTonyJ 05:54 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I don't understand what "lose their ass" means. And so I'm not sure at all what it is I don't understand that has you so baffled. What would happen to a major theater if they were to produce Royal Family? Or a small theater if they did Little Miss Sunshine? Or Muscle? or Romance even? Are these shows even available to produce? I assume Little Miss Sunshine is but I wouldn't be surprised if the other 3 are not. I'm as much asking how an accomplished, acclaimed writer has written scores to FOUR other musicals that were produced at one point and nothing has been seen or heard of them since (other than the two major mountings of LMS that made no splash and weren't even a hot ticket). I'm also asking because, as I said, I don't know these shows, I didn't get to see any of them and haven't heard the scores to any of them. Of course it's very possible that none of them were very good or memorable, and that he's written 8 shows and only 4 of them are worthwhile. I'd kill for that track record. Doing new works or unknown old works from majorly beloved and acclaimed writers is absolutely in the wheelhouse and abilities of many non-profit theaters. They do not have to appeal to a mass audience. It really is a case by case basic for every theater around the country that is interested in producing musicals and who their subscribers are, what they like/expect/buy tickets to, what the larger community of potential ticket buyers is, and how small a budget they could get away with putting on a show for. "From the creators of Into the Woods and Spelling Bee" is certainly something a theater could say to help sell tickets to Muscle. But also notable theater actors love Finn's work, and other notable writers like him... that's another way to do it. A lot of musicals find a life. Just because these shows haven't had life doesn't mean it's insane or ignorant to wonder why, given the names involved. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: ashleylm 06:26 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 01:41 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I saw Little Miss Sunshine ... in my opinion (the only one I have), it was not very good. I was not excited, moved to laughter or tears, thrilled, or engaged. Not one song stuck with me in any way afterward (and they don't have to be catchy ... I can say "boy, that Act One closer sure was beautiful" even if I don't remember how it went). It was just there. I remember the theatre and where I was sitting far more than any element of the production. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:32 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:31 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - ashleylm 06:26 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| That's so sad, and sounds sadly right given the life it's had. Though I am baffled as to why 2nd Stage was willing to mount it, with all the costs that go with it, when it was a dud at La Jolla. I had very little interest in seeing a musical of that movie done. That being said, I would have gone to see it had I been in NYC and was able, or San Diego, while it was running. Actually I wasn't aware of it being in San Diego until it was too late. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:51 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 01:41 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I think you’re severely underestimating how much non-profit theaters are dependent upon attracting a mass audience in order to sell tickets, get positive press, and raise money, as well as how hard it can be to market a show and get butts in seats. Slapping “Into the Woods and Spelling Bee” on a poster might sell one performance’s worth of tickets. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:57 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Singapore/Fling 03:51 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| okay, so show me some programming. Help me understand why one play or musical the audiences likely haven't heard of is gonna sell more than another? Other than "straight from broadway" ... or winner of name brand awards recently... what sells? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:46 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 03:57 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| It will vary by company and market, but broadly speaking: subject matter, community engagement, name recognition, track record of achievement, and cultural importance. Ideally, a theater is producing a show their audiences already want to see, because it made a splash in New York, or something the theater knows they can tie into their audience’s lives. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:19 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:16 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Singapore/Fling 05:46 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I could point to a hundred small theaters and more minor regional theaters where community engagement (specific to that community) and cultural importance does not at all seem to be part of the criteria. And for quite a lot of theater "community engagement" is basically just letting the community know they do plays and musicals worth seeing. And is this part of the thread all to try to make a convincing argument that NO theater in America would meet with anything but failure, empty seats, and financial ruination if they were to produce a William Finn musical? I mean... trust and believe, most people in "the community" have never heard of Falsettos or A New Brain either, and probably not Spelling Bee. Based on art work and subject matter, some people might want to see Spelling Bee and some might want to see Elegies... it's hard to say. In one thread we can say there's no need to justify reviving King & I and My Fair Lady, and in another we're claiming no theater could ever put on a Finn musical let alone one that doesn't have a googleable track record. So are we saying that amateur and regional theaters ONLY produce actually famous works? It's just not true. Maybe I've lost the bead on this thread but I'm not sure what the point that's being made is or what it's based on. The criteria you mention... unless they have to achieve ALL of the criteria, could be said of literally any play or musical depending on the community or talent attached (and attached talent rarely plays into it because unless you're a MAJOR theater you do not have performers with recognition almost ever). |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:02 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 06:16 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I don’t quite follow your logic train: this thread was about why theaters wouldn’t produce four obscure musicals by William Finn, not why they wouldn’t produce *any* of them. Somehow, the goal posts moved. Of the shows he’s written, I would wager “Spelling Bee” gets done a lot. First off, it probably has the strongest name recognition to a general theater audience. It can be billed as “The Tony-winning Broadway hit”, it is a fun comedy, it has audience interaction, and it tells a heartwarming story of family. That ticks so many boxes. Then “Falsettos” is more niche, but it also won some Tonys, can be sold as a family story, a Jewish story, a gay story, and an AIDS story. The recent revival probably helped get it back in people’s consciousness, which could also make it an easier sell (though not an easy one) for the next five years. “A New Brain” might be sticky enough from the two cast albums to make it sellable to a more in-the-know theater crowd, and it also provides good roles to a variety of performers who may be local theater “celebrities”. I don’t know if it has the same hook as the other two, partly because the story isn’t as strong, but you could probably sell enough tickets to make it work. The other factor I left out is word of mouth. These shows could all generate good word of mouth, whereas the other Finn shows probably wouldn’t. They might excite some truly adventurous aficionados, but that won’t sell a run. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:15 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 01:41 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I talk to the artistic directors of theaters (mostly) in Chicago and (on occasion) in New York all the time. I have even discussed some of the shows mentioned in this thread with them. I know what they tell me and it isn't the same as what you are saying. "Lose their ass" means losing so much money that their viability as an active theater is threatened. I obviously cannot mention names on a message board. If you want to continue this conversation further, feel free to e-mail me at anthonyjanicki@att.net -- I can get more specific on private e-mail. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Sam890 05:43 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 10:45 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
|
|
|
| I've loved a lot of Finn's songs, but I do find his work rather patchy. I saw a production of Little Miss Sunshine and found much of the score sounded like inferior rehashes of songs he'd previously written. But I too would love to hear complete recordings of all his shows |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:06 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
| In reply to: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 10:45 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
|
|
|
| Actually I'm seeing Romance in Hard Times was revived at Barrington with a new book by Sheinkin in 2014... but then nothing. Did anyone see it? (either production)? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 12:08 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:00 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what's become of all the lesser known/newer William Finn musicals? - Chazwaza 11:06 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
|
|
|
| It's my favorite William Finn show, with the caveat that I've never seen it, which might be a plus for this one. There are so many stunning musical numbers, from the opening song to the main character's big solo cri de coeur to the oft-recorded "All Fall Down" to the ravishing "That's Enough for Me", and it's a real crime that Lilias White's performance wasn't recorded, because she was a force of nature in that role. But that being said, it is not a surprise that it's rarely done. It is 100% batshit crazy, and I think it demands that an audience just go along with the absurdity of the show in order to get those gorgeous, gorgeous songs, and not get invested in the strange comings and goings of the plot. It's my number one choice for an Encores! concert that gets us a recording, and a concert setting might be the best way for us to experience the storytelling, which is loose and loopy. BTW, thanks for posting this. It sent me down a very fortuitous internet rabbit hole. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:05 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - Singapore/Fling 12:00 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| It's my favorite William Finn show, with the caveat that I've never seen it and it's a real crime that Lilias White's performance wasn't recorded, because she was a force of nature in that role. But if A is true, then how do we get to B? :-) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:33 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - Chromolume 12:05 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Oh, there are ways. Maybe I dreamt it… | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:22 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - Chromolume 12:05 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Your post sounds like an alternate verse of "Now". | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:27 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - BroadwayTonyJ 12:22 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Ha! Either that, or "See How The Fates Their Gifts Allot." :-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 10:59 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - Singapore/Fling 12:00 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I seem to recall that in a fit of pique after the Public staging, Finn literally threw everything he could out the window to blow away. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? | |
| Posted by: Ann 11:20 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? - Quicheo 10:59 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Which sounds like a good basis for another autobiographical musical. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? - Ann 11:20 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| For whom? William Finn or Peter, Paul, and Mary? Bob Dylan's music has already been featured in at least 4 Broadway shows. Here's a challenge: how about a bio-musical about Dylan with a completely original score, perhaps by Jason Robert Brown, something like what Jule Styne did for Fanny Brice and Gypsy Rose Lee? I guess the answer is blowing in the wind. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:29 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? - BroadwayTonyJ 11:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Am I missing something, or how did Dylan get into this thread?? :-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:04 am EST 01/06/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? - Chromolume 06:29 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Quicheo posted that William Finn's orchestrations were blowing in the wind. Ann said that would be the basis for an autobiographical musical. Since Dylan wrote the song "Blowing in the Wind", I (being in a whimsical mood) queried if the proposed show should be about Finn, Dylan, or Peter, Paul, and Mary. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:15 pm EST 01/06/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Weren't the original orchestrations and lyrics destroyed? - BroadwayTonyJ 11:04 am EST 01/06/22 | |
|
|
|
| Got it, lol. ;-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: PJ 07:25 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - Singapore/Fling 12:00 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| Agreed with everything you say here, S/F. The fact that the original Public Theater production went unrecorded in 1989 is one of the biggest failures of the era. The vocal performances, orchestrations (Starobin at his...most Starobin-esque), and the subject matter and time period/musical style mashup deserve proper preservation. What I wouldn't give for a reunion at the Public, either at Joe's Pub or perhaps even a weekend at the Delacorte (expand the orchestra! put them onstage! celebrate the score and downplay the ridiculousness of the story!), that results in a complete live recording for digital release. If not a true original cast reunion, then maybe Patina Miller or Lilli Cooper could tackle Henny? Sherie Renee Scott as Zoe? Kate McKinnon as Eleanor Roosevelt? It's up there with A NEW BRAIN, FALSETTOS, and ELEGIES as far as Finn scores go. If you don't love those scores, please go read another post. ROMANCE IN HARD TIMES is, to me, the other side of the LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS coin: ambitious, ridiculous off-Broadway musical that requires a just-go-along-with-it attitude from its audience with a score that saves the day every time the story almost careens off the road. Of course, LITTLE SHOP has one clear thread where ROMANCE has a tangled mess. And it has source material. From what I understand, the BSC revision added a "William Finn" character framing device/narrator who explained the fate of the original production. The whole thing got a little smaller, a little simpler, and a little bit more produceable - though I don't think it spawned a single subsequent production. The great orchestrations of the original were dumped and the musical reduction is disappointing. Probably a bad move in hindsight. Hopefully this score doesn't disappear, especially now in the days of semi-easy-to-release cast albums. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: tocop 08:36 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - PJ 07:25 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| A Cast recording is long overdue--saw it 3x back in 1989...the score--a treasure! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane | |
| Posted by: schauspieler 01:33 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Romance in Hard Times is Incredible and Insane - Singapore/Fling 12:00 am EST 01/05/22 | |
|
|
|
| I was fortunate to have been invited by a friend to see ROMANCE at The Public and we both LOVED it. My first time experiencing the magnificent Lillias White. I too wondered why the show had such a short life. . |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.095805 seconds.