Threaded Order Chronological Order
| isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 11:41 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
| In reply to: “Flying Over Sunset” Closing Jan 16th - Singapore/Fling 07:01 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| How often, if ever, does Lincoln Center end a scheduled run several weeks early? Am I completely ignorant in thinking that non-profits with this kind of money almost always have their shows play the originally scheduled run as part of the season program? I'd also like to suggest that as bizarre, and perhaps unsatisfying, as so many have found this show... I think if there were no pandemic making people think twice about sitting in a theater, this show might not have struggled to fills seats or find more of its niche audience. (for what it's worth, the matinee I saw the week of opening was full) I would say I liked the show a lot and am very glad I saw it, I've been recommending it to anyone I speak to about nyc theater. Beyond the impressive creatives and cast, it's a new musical at LCT (with 2 of the 3 writers being Pulitzer Prize winners, and the 3rd doing Pulitzer worthy work in his most known show). I would think in a normal season there would be more anticipation and less indifference, even if people don't like it. What an amazingly bittersweet season for Tom Kitt... with TWO new musicals with his music, at probably the two most revered non-profit theaters in NYC, one off broadway and one on, working with amazing collaborators and cast. To have even one like either of these in any season, let alone in your career, would be amazing. He has both, at once, in the most irregular season to ever exist (since the last major pandemic, I assume)... and both are panned and/or met with indifference and head-scratching by most. I didn't get to see The Visitor and nothing I heard from friends or read made me think I needed to see it, neither did the two songs I saw performances of online... but had they mounted it 5-10 years ago it might have met a more receptive audience/critic base, in 2021 it didn't stand much of a chance given the subject/perspective (though again, I don't hear good things about the material, "problematic" problems aside, though I remember the original film was good and acclaimed at the time). But I think he did some wonderful work in Flying Over Sunset. At least that got a cast recording so the show might have another life... it doesn't seem like The Visitor got so lucky. |
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| Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Posted by: dramedy 10:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| And that had some big broadway stars and I think better reviews than this show. | |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:18 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - dramedy 10:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Comparing a show in a Broadway house with a show at the Beaumont is apples and oranges. The economics are not the same. | |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:09 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - dramedy 10:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I saw Women/Verge late in its run -- some time in December, 2010. It was quite a good show by that time with an excellent score. However, it had been trashed to high heaven on this message board. | |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Posted by: mikem 11:08 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - BroadwayTonyJ 11:09 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I saw Women on the Verge at an early preview, and again at its final performance. There were significant changes (if I remember correctly, I think that the song order was quite different, and a different song ended Act I and began Act II at the different performances). If the show had had an out-of-town tryout, I think it would have helped tremendously. The show was also hampered by Sherie Rene Scott's performance as the lead, which was very low energy (which I think was a directorial decision). I haven't seen Flying Over Sunset, but it sounds like an out-of-town tryout wouldn't have mattered that much. |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 11:16 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 11:13 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - mikem 11:08 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| It had multiple readings and at least two workshops, one with Christine Ebersole and another with the late Marin Mazzie, Boyd Gaines attached a long while in the Huxley role, Tam Mutu as Grant in one iteration. Safe to say it had lots of development. | |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 11:57 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:39 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - Delvino 11:13 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I have no idea if the show would have changed much if it had gone out of town first... but it's very worth acknowledging that an out of town try-out production and a development period with some readings are very very different things and give the writers different things. This LCT production is the first proper staging of the show and the first time its in front of a proper audience, right? That's extremely different than readings, and it's possible an OOT tryout would have taught them a lot about their show and given them the chance to see it and change it into something that reached the audience better and achieved their goals better. Who knows. But to discuss it as if the show having done several developmental readings over a few years proves that nothing much would have changed had the show started OOT is not fair. |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Posted by: ashleylm 01:43 pm EST 01/06/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - Chazwaza 11:39 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I saw it at LCT, and loved the score (well, 80% of it). Loved it. One of my favourite all-time scores. But the show between the songs was dramatically inert, despite taxicabs and beds on fire and multiple poisonings. I personally don't think it would have taken much to fix, so an out-of-town tryout might have been just the thing. Or they might have made it worse, like how (supposedly) Lestat eroded between San Francisco and NYC. |
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| re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early | |
| Last Edit: Ann 01:57 pm EST 01/06/22 | |
| Posted by: Ann 01:56 pm EST 01/06/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Women in the verge…. Closed a few weeks early - ashleylm 01:43 pm EST 01/06/22 | |
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| I saw an early preview (though there had already been plenty of hair-on-fire criticism) and thought it was wildly entertaining. One of my top ten "so happy I got to see this" productions. And that score! One of my favorite Yazbek scores, though I pretty much love them all. I do think a tryout or two would have helped greatly, and, though I thought the cast did a fine job (I didn't think of Scott as being low-energy at all), it could have been phenomenal with casting that reflected the Spanish setting, as the film of course did. It felt wrong even then, and a decade+ later, things would be very different (think of a crossover for Banderas). |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: ileen 10:04 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| Personally, it is definitely due to covid for me. I have been an LCT subscriber since I was probably one of the youngest ones (joined for the Steve Martin/Robin Williams/Bill Irwin Waiting for Godot). I have not been back to any indoor theater since covid began (saw Merry Wives this summer) & purposely purchased tickets for the end of Jan for this show, thinking it would be my first show back. I had been wondering as omicron surged if I would feel comfortable enough to return as the date approached, now that decision has been made for me. | |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: toros 10:03 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| the show could've completed its full run with LTC members, but the members did not show up, so the short run has a lot to do with Covid. but it was recorded. |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: mikem 09:06 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| As with other struggling shows, it's both the reviews AND Covid, but Flying's soft ticket sales were notable even before the first performance. It is usually extremely hard to get a decent seat for an LCT preview, because the many members snatch up all the preview tickets on the first day of member sales. It often feels like they are all gone in the first two hours. (Preview tickets are cheaper than regular tickets to members.) But surprisingly few member tickets were sold on that first day, and it's not as if the members bought the tickets on a future date, either. Sales were markedly different than pre-pandemic. Roundabout also has a lot better availability than one would have seen pre-pandemic. Flying is not a show with a lot of teen appeal, and the older theatergoer is still understandably hesitant. If Covid hadn't happened, I think Flying would have finished its regular run. |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:16 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| You are far more knowledgeable than I am and I know you work in theatre -- I'm just a fan. IMO you certainly are not ignorant -- I love reading your posts -- but you seem to be very naive about the business aspect and/or economics of theatre. I am friends with many theatre historians and writers, who have given me quite an education about the money aspect of producing theatre. Do you ever interact with any of the respected theatre historians outside of your generation? Just curious. | |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:27 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:16 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Thank you for the complimentary portion of the post! In what ways do you find me so very naive about the business/economics of theater? I'm not saying I'm not, I've never personally produced a show on Broadway. I have worked with my people who have/do... but that doesn't mean I know nearly as much as I might need to to understand it. I don't mean to post as if I do know, I am posting based on what I observe or think I understand or what I posit. What from this post do you think I have so wrong? I don't think I'm wrong at all that FLYING's lack of sales and early closing has quite a lot to do with the COVID situation, before it went on sale and with the omicron breakout and surge happening in NYC in the last 5 weeks of the show's scheduled run. I don't think I'm wrong that major non-profits, including LCT, almost always let their scheduled shows run the scheduled run even if they are "flops". I don't know how one "interacts" with respected theatre historians... in my generation or outside it. But I do know quite a few people of older generations who know a lot, and of my own who know as much or more than I do. I don't consult them before I post here. But what would have changed about my assertions if I had? |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: StageLover 06:30 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:16 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Could you possibly be more condescending? | |
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| re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - StageLover 06:30 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I was trying to be honest and sincere. Sorry if that didn't work for you. | |
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| Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:53 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
| In reply to: isn't this likely more to do with Covid than reviews? - Chazwaza 11:36 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| So I do think in this case, the reviews very much killed it. Even before the Omicron wave hit maximum force, LCT had dropped the TodayTix fees on the already discounted $30 back row of the loge tickets... which I probably would have bought if they'd done that before the reviews came out, but once we have multiple critics writing that the first act was not great and the second act was much worse... no, not even the faintly positive word of mouth on this board could convince me to pay $30. In terms of closing earlier than planned, Covid might have made it more easier for them to justify the choice - depressed ticket sales, more expensive protocols - and the fact that it's running until the 16th suggests to me that the company was probably initially contracted through then, with the additional three weeks being the built-in extension that was simply sold in advance rather than once there was "audience demand"... which in this case might have been unwise. Did "Women on the Verge" (which I love the recording of) close early? Or did they just not play the announced extension? |
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| re: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 09:01 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 09:01 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced - Singapore/Fling 11:53 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| And then another Beaumont show with mixed to poor reviews ("Even the crème de la crème can curdle every now and then..." Brantley, 7/23/04): The Frogs. But Lane and Sondheim countered the negatives. It ran 92 performances, 34 previews. Sunset will only muster 28 previews, 35 performances. It's harder to turn Lapine and Kitt and these 3 (wonderful but not stars) actors into a comparable event show. And it didn't happen. | |
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| re: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:50 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced - Delvino 09:01 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| But again, I don't think it can be ignored that COVID played a big and perhaps definitive role in closing FLYING early. So it can't be compared with any other LCT musical. And it also can't be compared in the sense that I think there was/is WAY WAY more interest and buzz over what is essentially a new Sondheim musical (a score only stauch devotees have heard, with rewrites and a couple new songs by him), with a new book by the beloved Nathan Lane and starring Lane, who was even more famous as an actor then than he is now (in terms of box office). Add to that that it was directed and choreographed (heavily) by the current reigning star of Broadway director/choreographers, reuniting with Lane from their smash triumph with The Producers.... this was a very buzzed about show. I think mixed reviews and mixed word of mouth and high production cost is what kept the show from extending further. We have to also remember a theater like LCT with a scheduled season reserving their own theaters for other shows to occupy every few months means that if a show is a hit they must pay to move it to a Broadway house that they have to rent, or it means renting a broadway house to mount their next scheduled show(s) in to keep their surprise hit running. It's a very expensive proposition. I think it must have been clear that the sales, based on word on the actual show (rather than the buzz-worthy potential of it) and the mixed reviews are what kept it from going further. For what it's worth, it seems like they used to schedule shorter runs too... Junk (2017) - 97 The Great Society (2019) - 98 Act One (2014) - 98 A Free Man of Color (2010) - 90 Women On the Verge (2010) - 99 The Frogs (2004) - 126 Seascape (2005) - 82 Thou Shalt Not (2001) - 118 The Invention of Love (2001) 139 Marie Christine (1999) - 81 Parade (1999) - 124 Twelfth Night (1998) - 83 (despite starring big Oscar winner that year Helen Hunt) Juan Darien (1996) - 69 Chronicle of Death Foretold (1995) - 65 My Favorite Year (1992) - 81 Four Baboons Adoring the Sun (1992) - 64 |
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| re: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 12:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:30 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced - Singapore/Fling 11:53 pm EST 01/04/22 | |
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| I tend not to post about current shows, but I saw it late in previews and I would have absolutely encouraged you to go. And unless my memory is wrong (it hasn't been that long), the $30 loge tickets i bought on TodayTix were absolutely being sold that way on the app before the reviews came out. I mean, I don't know when they came out but I saw it the saturday before it opened, and I bought tickets to it a few days before that. I don't think reviews come out the week before opening. But part of the obligation of a non-profit is that they program based on the cultural enrichment of the "community" or scene as it were, and that they make tickets available for the run of that season's shows to all people. It's one of the things LCT prides itself on. So it seems unlikely and bonkers to me that if a show isn't selling well (for its, what, 12 week scheduled run as part of the non-profit season) or reviews are bad, that they'd just close it early and stop making the show they decided was artistically worth developing and producing for the audience (and with government arts endowment funding, etc) that has yet to have the chance to see it. Seems like their obligation and very much their prerogative to have the show run its scheduled run. Even if they're losing money running it, that's why it's non-profit. I hope they didn't close it early because of poor sales or bad reviews. I also love the recording of Women On the Verge... I didn't get to see that show. Many LCT shows people assume were flops because they had "short" runs doing only their limited but normally-scheduled runs... shows I love and am so glad got produced on that level and that I got to see, like Parade, The Frogs (well I didn't love this but I'm glad it happened), Marie Christine, and even at the Mitzi like Dessa Rose, and A Man of No Importance (and some I didn't care for like Happiness and The Glorious Ones, which were mercifully in the Mitzi). I mean, has LCT ever produced a new musical in the Vivian B that was a hit besides Piazza? I'm not gonna count Contact because I don't really consider a musical or something that has the same hurdles as a selling a new musical (different hurdles, but not comparable). The Frogs can maybe be considered new, and it was a hit in the sense that it extended past its original run, but only by a week from what I'm guessing based on the # of performances. Looking at the Vivian's ibdb page, it seems that it has not. |
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| Is there a reason why you don’t post about current shows? | |
| Posted by: dramedy 10:47 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced - Chazwaza 12:30 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Seems odd to not discuss and opine about a current show. | |
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| well, I tend not to *start* discussions of them, but I'll participate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:27 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: Is there a reason why you don’t post about current shows? - dramedy 10:47 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| And it's not a rule of mine, it's just a thing I've noticed. I certainly haven't been shy about voicing my issues with Company... when it was in London or here. But I didn't start a thread about it, as I recall. And I should have posted a thread praising FLYING and encouraging people to go see it, but I tend not to think to do that as much, and assume there will be threads to chime in on. There wasn't much here about Flying and so I guess it didn't happen. |
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| *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:45 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:33 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Multiple reviews questioned how the show even got produced - Chazwaza 12:30 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Women on the Verge, i forgot (because I didn't see it), was at the Belasco. Thou Shalt Not was at the Plymouth (now the Schoenfeld). I guess it ran about a month or two longer than the typical LCT scheduled run of a new musical (depends what year). Chronicle of a Death Foretold was also at the Plymouth. Sarafina! was at the Cort, and LCT produced it... it was a big hit for them by LCT run standards. And they were part of the producing powers behind Passion, also at the Plymouth, which ran about 3-5x longer, or more, than a normal LCT new musical scheduled run (but of course it wasn't scheduled in a season like that). I've never really looked at this much, but all in all, LCT has not put that many *new* musicals on Broadway given their resources (and Contact was a fluke, being not one with an original score or singing, and the rare, maybe sole "musical" they did at the Mitzi and then moved to Broadway). If I'm not leaving anything out, in over 30 years they produced 11 new musicals: Flying Over Sunset Women On the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown The Light in the Piazza The Frogs Thou Shalt Not **Contact, which doesn't count as a new musical for this Marie Christine Parade Juan Darien Chronicle of Death Foretold My Favorite Year Sarafina! (12 if Passion counts, but I don't think it does -- but some would say The Frogs was a revival, or at least not a risk for them given it is a Sondheim score people don't know, with a book and starring a huge screen and stage star) Thank goodness for the Mitzi programming to add new musicals to that. I love and value their consistently stellar and often amazing revivals, especially as a balance to the often under-budgeted Roundabout musical revivals ... but how sad that Roundabout takes so many more chances with choice of musicals to revive (though their new musicals are almost exclusively risks from a box office and reviews stand point, so bigger points there -- obviously their revivals of sure-fire hit musicals done exceptionally well is what pays for the risky new musicals). I'm not sure I'd say LCT has revived a single musical that wasn't a classic or one guaranteed to be raved about if done at the level of LCT standards. (Anything Goes, The Most Happy Fella (sort of produced by LCT), Carousel, South Pacific, King & I, My Fair Lady). In fact I'd dare say they didn't need to do King & I or My Fair Lady at all except that they hadn't had good revivals in awhile and Bart wanted to do them... doesn't seem like great reasons. I'm glad they made the theater some profit. I don't have a point to make, just that I think of LCT as having done more new musicals than they have, but also that they have done fewer revivals overall than I thought.\ I'm really just killing time and procrastinating work. Looking at this, I'm glad they finally greenlit a broadway musical mounting that wasn't directed by Bart (though it was by a broadway stalwart, but at least doing something risky and experimental)... it's been a LONG time. The last 3 revivals and 2 musicals before Flying were all Bart. Before that, Stro had 3 in a row. Both brilliant theater artists, as are all the directors they've worked with. But it's really time for some new blood. And I don't mean letting Sam Gold have run of things for the next 5 years either. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Chazwaza 01:33 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I would count Contact as a new musical before I would count The Frogs, which in any event won the Best Musical Tony Award. If we're looking at just the Beaumont, they've produced six (seven if you want to count The Frogs, and I am not counting Juan Darien, which was technically a revival) new musicals, and two of them have been hits, which is not a bad track record, especially considering that they are open to producing some of the more idiosyncratic work of the past twenty-five years... but also, as you point out, they've begun chasing the hits of those Bart Sher revivals. They might not have had great artistic reasons to do "King and I" or "My Fair Lady", but they absolutely had financial reasons, and I'm sure they're hard at work searching for another revival of that caliber. In terms of "Flying over Sunset", they gave it a go, but there just isn't an audience for it. They'd keep running it through the original dates if people wanted to see it, but look at their availability for the next two weeks: right now, they've sold maybe 30% of that theater. On a good day, the Orchestra is 2/3 full and the Loge is 1/5 full; on a bad day, the Orchestra is 1/3 full and the Loge is veritably empty (as in, they seem to have sold ten seats empty... on a Friday night). Even for a non-profit, those numbers are tough. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 02:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| pre-covid, LCT had a pretty reliable audience (at least for in-house shows that have far lower cash flow issues than rentals) for whatever they put on stage. That has changed because of covid. It is also, of course, true that this show has not been a magnet for ticket sales. But I believe that the primary causation here is covid. It took what would have been lousy numbers down to the point that the numbers were not viable. Add to that the health risks (and logistics) and you have a plausible explanation. As one of the late great producers was fond of saying, no failure or success in the theatre can be explained by a single variable. Also, it's a tangent in your post but I do not think it is reasonable to question the artistic bona fides of producing K&I or MFL any more than one might question the Public Theater or the RSC staging Hamlet. | |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| To be clear, I wasn’t questioning the artistic bona fides of those revivals, I was responding to them being questioned in the spirit of “Yes, Anding”.. but that being said, I think we’d have to be naive to think that the phenomenal success of “South Pacific” didn’t drive LCT to find more money-making productions. | |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:55 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| What is wrong with making money? Even non-profits have a bottom line that will affect their decisions. | |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:52 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - BroadwayTonyJ 03:55 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I think you misunderstand me - there’s nothing wrong with making money, and actually non-profits have to do it just as much if not more than commercial theater. My point isn’t that these revivals are bad, it’s that they’re being driven by financial concerns: running over a year in the Beaumont, spurring a National Tour, potentially transferring to the West End, and of course winning awards. That’s how LCT keeps itself in business. These things generate revenue through ticket sales, but also through prestige, which is then used to fund raise and get grants. Someone is far more likely to drop 50 grand at a gala because of “My Fair Lady” than “Flying over Sunset”. I don’t really have a value judgment for that, it’s just the way it is. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:29 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:26 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 05:52 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I'd be very curious to see the books at LCT. Perhaps it has to do with government funding and donors, but LCT seemed to be doing exceptionally well, as far as non-profit theaters go, before launching a sure-fire hit revival every few years. I'd also be curious to see how The Public works, since they almost never have big revivals, hit or otherwise, to rely on for their budget. I'm also sure it depends on the donor. Were I rich, you'd much more likely get 50k out of me for producing Caroline or Change or even A Man of No Importance than you would from an excellent revival of My Fair Lady. (you'd also get more from me for their revival of Carousel than for their revival of The King & I). I'm also curious how Roundabout works! Being almost revivals of musicals for their broadway mountings. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 08:12 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 08:08 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Chazwaza 06:26 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Every theater has a different brand. It’s not that you need to produce revivals to make bank, it’s just that that’s the path that has been most profitable for LCT. The Public doesn’t need revivals, because Oskar is very good at getting behind new musicals that transfer, Hamilton being the biggest in his tenure. To a large extent, I think that’s true of most on the non-profits in New York: their job is making new shows, and that’s what they’re mostly seeding into the commercial realms. Roundabout is, at this point, as much a real estate company as a theater, and they’re the only non-profit theater I know of that is run be a CEO rather than an Artistic Director. They have many irons in the fire at any one time and got where they are primarily through ruthless business acumen supported by reasonably good artistic choices, but I think it’s fair to say that “Cabaret” was a game changer for them in terms of expanding them to regularly program two Broadway theaters in addition to their Off-Broadway spaces. Bear in mind two things: the bulk of funding for these theaters still comes from private donations and foundations (which are often run by the same people who give the private donations), and that some theaters in NY are less solvent than they might appear. The occasional Hamilton or South Pacific mega-hit is the exception, but when a theater makes one, it can change their financial lives significantly. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:17 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 08:08 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| thanks for the thoughtful reply. | |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 07:10 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:09 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Chazwaza 06:26 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Based on the above statements, if you really want answers to your questions, you need to expand your circle of acquaintances to include respected writers, historians, directors, etc. who have more knowledge and experience than you do. They all have websites and e-mail addresses. Years ago when e-mail became popular, I began corresponding with a whole circle of individuals who wrote articles in magazines like Theater Week, In Theater, Show Music, various newspapers, and other print media sources. They all returned my e-mails, and I began to learn from their knowledge and experience. I have definitely had conversations with a few of them about how funding at LCT, the Public, and Roundabout works. What I have learned from them over a period of decades does not jive with what you seem to be saying in some of your posts. Again, I like reading your posts. You bring up topics that deserve discussion. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings by suggesting that one of your posts was naive. I was just trying to respond to you as honestly and sincerely as I could. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 09:27 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:15 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - BroadwayTonyJ 07:09 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| One way is to seek out the names, writings and emails of the types of people you refer to and hope to correspond with them over several years. Another way, in the meantime perhaps, would be for you, who seem to know about the stuff I'm asking (or assuming), to reply with your thoughts or information or contradictions or whatever, to the specific things you think I have wrong or don't get or could be more informed about based on my questions and statements. (I feel like I'm doing a lot of asking, or inquisitively stating... I said "i'd like to see their books", not "I don't need to see their books because I know X Y and Z". I was saying that perhaps funding and fundraising has changed because before they started doing hit revivals they were already one of the best funded non-profits in America. I said I'd like to know how the Public does it, also spending a lot of money, having what seems to be a lot of money (by non-profit theater standards), and almost never doing revivals... and what it's like for Roundabout which does almost exclusively revivals. I didn't make points or assert things I present as truths, I'm asking, and wondering out loud. I'm sorry if it didn't come off that way. I like reading your posts too. I'd love to hear from you, in this conversation thread, about your info and insights on the topics were are discussing, rather than the suggestion to change my circle of acquaintances. Let's consider each other internet acquaintances... I'm writing to you right now. BroadwayTonyJ, I'd love to know what you have to say about this stuff. You don't even have to present as an expert or reliable source... "My understanding is..." or "I've heard..." or "People I know who've worked there have said/given me the impression..."... if you'd like to engage on that level. If you can only do that in private email, I'll just email you. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:09 am EST 01/06/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Chazwaza 09:15 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Sounds good. | |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 05:52 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I agree with every word in your post. | |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:49 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:49 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 02:42 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| And by golly they found a few... I just wonder what else has the right mix of popularity, appeal, and worthiness of a first class revival. Sounds like Camelot is next, but after that I'm not sure there's anything left that is a sure-fir money maker that is worthy of a LCT revival but also hasn't been done recently. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:19 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I agree, it was covid what killed her. When you see a half-full LCT theater and it's still very much during the original subscriber run... which isn't all that long given how many subscribers there are and what a coveted membership it is... it is likely not because NO ONE is willing to see it including people who know it is part of a relatively small season that they already subscribe to see. Let alone an exciting new musical by some of the best creatives of the last several decades, and starring at least one actor who headlined the most recent hit musical at LCT. But who knows. And fine, I don't disagree about the justification/bona fides of production K&I or MFL vs Hamlet. And LCT has done quite a few Shakespeare revivals. But I don't think they were given the kind of visionary productions or had the relevance that other revivals they've done had. But maybe I'm just thinking of Carousel and South Pacific. And I'm very glad there is a theater willing to spend the money they spend to give golden age musicals the kind of productions (and orchestras) they deserve. |
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| re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:19 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Thank you for stating so succinctly and comprehensively what I have tried to do (most likely clumsily) on several occasions to similar questions on this board. I love this post! |
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| what might their next hit revival be? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:02 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:57 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: *not even just at the Vivian, but any new musical on broadway - Singapore/Fling 02:49 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| First, I just cannot count Contact -- whatever award it won, it is a dance piece with no score or singing -- it doesn't have a cast recording, it is almost never reproduced because people who put up musicals or go see musicals outside of Broadway aren't even able let alone interested in doing the show without Stroman, blah blah ... And happy to take Juan Darien off, I didn't realize that was a revival. While I commend their record I still say it's far too few given the number of years they've been at it and the resources and outreach to artists they have. But my question now is... I wonder what the next hit revival will be for them. I mean, they've never done a revival that wasn't a big hit, have they? We've really run out of clear contenders. My guesses include Kiss of the Spider Woman, Camelot, Zorba, Candide, Street Scene, Fiorello, and Dreamgirls. But only a couple of those are likely hits. I can see them doing A Little Night Music or Follies in the next 10 years, maybe Ragtime, and maybe Floyd Collins, maybe The Wiz, and maybe Parade... their first revival of their own show. All of their revivals have been shows that were already very famous and beloved titles in productions that stunningly reinvented them or just stunningly presented them traditionally. So far they don't remount lost/unknown gems, or shows that have been done recently, and they don't remount things that were popular without being classic and nuanced. I'm not sure we have many shows left that fit. Most of what I'd see fitting for them has either been done recently by other producers, or is nowhere near enough of a popular title or surefire hot ticket. |
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| re: what might their next hit revival be? - answer: Camelot | |
| Posted by: toros 12:12 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what might their next hit revival be? - Chazwaza 03:57 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| It will be Camelot, with a new book by Aaron Sorkin. they're have been two readings/workshops | |
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| re: what might their next hit revival be? - answer: Camelot | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 07:45 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what might their next hit revival be? - answer: Camelot - toros 12:12 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Cast the leads young! Young, idealistic, vain, mistake-prone, full of youthful zeal and passion, lacking a mature viewpoint. That’s why the loss of Merlin is so critical. Burton was 34, Goulet a little older, Andrews was about 25. Laura, who admits she cast an even younger Burton in a fictional Kurt Weill musical… |
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| re: what might their next hit revival be? - answer: Camelot | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:22 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what might their next hit revival be? - answer: Camelot - showtunetrivia 07:45 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| The last times I saw Camelot Arthur was played by Michael York in his mid 60s (at La Mirada, with Rachel York and James Barbour), and Gabriel Byrne at 58 (in the staged concert for Live from Lincoln Center, with Marin Mazzie and Nathan Gunn, which was a mixed bag at best, and a mistake at worst). I too am tired of seeing old Arthurs. |
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| There is a soundtrack available for Contact | |
| Posted by: jeffef 12:04 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what might their next hit revival be? - Chazwaza 03:57 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| A purely dance piece, not a musical, as wonderful as it was. | |
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| CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:03 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what might their next hit revival be? - Chazwaza 03:57 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I love the original production of Contact, although I would not have voted it the Best Musical Tony award. It certainly has a score. It's just not an original one, and it's not sung live, and the music is not performed by a live orchestra -- too many caveats (IMO) to be the Best Musical winner. That said, it was a great show (Notice: I am not calling it a musical) and I'm glad I saw it with the original cast. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:38 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! - BroadwayTonyJ 11:03 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Thanks for intently not calling it a musical! :) Yes, plays have scores too... movies have scores. Of course I mean an original tapestry of songs written for the show and sung by performers in the show. |
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| re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:01 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! - Chazwaza 11:38 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I knew what you meant. I was just trying to chide you, to get you to lighten up a bit. I wanted to get in my joke about a Broadway show really having a soundtrack and to emphasize my feeling that Contact is a show, but not necessarily a musical. BTW (and changing the subject), the '54 film On the Waterfront has a great score by Leonard Bernstein. He doesn't conduct the orchestra on it, but he does play the piano on at least one cue. There is a complete CD soundtrack recording of its score, and it is just as memorable as his Broadway scores. There are moments in the score that forecast (I hope that's the right word) the music he would compose for West Side Story. |
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| re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:20 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! - BroadwayTonyJ 12:01 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Oh, I got it. Did my smiley face not signal that? :) |
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| re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:31 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! - Chazwaza 12:20 pm EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I'm too old to figure out emoticons. Of course, I should have just googled it, my bad. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: writerkev 11:41 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! - Chazwaza 11:38 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| The creators of the piece themselves didn't call it a musical until the critics did. When the show started at the Mitzi Newhouse, it was billed as "a dance play." | |
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| re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:56 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- a Rare Original Broadway Production that has a Recording that Can Legitimately Be Called a SOUNDTRACK! - writerkev 11:41 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Yep! And I didn't mean this thread to veer into a debate on if Contact is a "musical (luckily there's been no debate yet, those who replied seem to agree with me), but it's just such a shame it got forced into that category in a year with so many worthwhile and actual musicals. It wasn't in one of the years where Jukebox musicals dominated... it took the award from musicals where the craft of writing and performing musicals was on full and varied display in The Wild Party (easily my choice for "best musical"), Aida, Marie Christine, even James Joyce's The Dead... and even Putting It Together might have snuck in with a Best Musical nomination had it not been for Contact. At least Swing! was a revue with singing (though of course not better as a piece of original theater than Contact). I suppose if one doesn't like either LaChiusa musical or Aida then this must seem like a very weak year, but I happen to love them both and I respect Aida for what it was as an original musical and production and its long run and many passionate fans who must have been quite perturbed and confused by the Tonys that year. |
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| re: what might their next hit revival be? | |
| Posted by: scoot1er 09:19 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what might their next hit revival be? - Chazwaza 03:57 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| The last revival of Show Boat closed on this date 25 years ago. Yes, it was a big hit and ran over two years, but I think it would be a great fit for the Beaumont. It's big, extravagant, and was controversial it the time Hammerstein and Kern wrote it. It is still timely, and, of course, has that gorgeous score. | |
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| re: what might their next hit revival be? | |
| Posted by: writerkev 05:40 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: what might their next hit revival be? - Chazwaza 03:57 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| Is “Brigadoon” revivable at that scale? It’s one of the only known titles from the golden age I’ve never seen onstage. Worth doing? | |
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| re: what might their next hit revival be? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:46 am EST 01/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: what might their next hit revival be? - writerkev 05:40 am EST 01/05/22 | |
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| I considered Brigadoon for the list but I just don't think as a play, or score, it is at the level of the other classics they've had such critical success with. I'm sure LCT (Bart or otherwise) could do a magnificent production, and I happen to love Brigadoon... but I don't think it's a strong enough play for them to do it. | |
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