Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Are Actors Equity or other unions assisting productions in this unprecedented time? | |
| Posted by: Kerick 05:23 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Does anyone know if Equity or Local 802 or IATSE has been helpful in assisting productions that are going on hiatus? What are the discussions between the Broadway League and the unions in general to try to save shows? | |
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| CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 09:59 pm EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: Are Actors Equity or other unions assisting productions in this unprecedented time? - Kerick 05:23 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Apparently, a “hibernation” clause already exists, but producers are not opting to use it: According to the NYC Musicians Union, who represents musicians on Broadway, there is a mechanism for a production to hibernate. Provisions in the union's contract with Broadway productions allow producers to temporarily close for a maximum of eight weeks during the months of January, February, and September. To do so, producers must get permission from the union and open their books to prove the show is losing money. McCollum declined, forcing the production to officially shut down — albeit temporarily, if all goes according to plan. The union claims the producers of "Mrs. Doubtfire" intentionally chose to close the production (rather than enter an official, union-sanctioned hiatus) to hide their finances. "Our Broadway contract does allow a show to go on hiatus in a way that protects everyone's jobs and gives audiences the promise that the show will return. But some producers choose not to follow this route so they can hide their finances from us. Instead, they simply close down their shows completely, with a vague promise of re-opening," Tino Gagliardi, the President of the NYC Musicians Union Local 802, said in a statement to CNBC. |
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| Link | A new labor battle opens on Broadway as omicron closes theater shows |
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| re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:41 pm EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere - MockingbirdGirl 09:59 pm EST 01/14/22 | |
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| once again, to repeat what I've said a zillion times now, it all gets back to the leadership vacuum. And now on to this article, written by someone with no knowledge of the industry and consequently no reason to be able to formulate the essential questions. Question #1. So 802 has a hibernation provision. Does any other union? Do all other unions? (If so, it's news to me but I am happy to be corrected.) If they don't, then this is meaningless. I'm sure provisions in the 802 contract seem so so germane to, e.g., Mockingbird (the show, not the fabulous chatter of the same name). I think a lot of people are massively underestimating the world of hurt we are in. |
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| re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 11:28 pm EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere - ryhog 10:41 pm EST 01/14/22 | |
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| The only Production Agreement I have handy is 2008–2011, and doesn't seem to include anything about that sort of layoff. I might have at least the next most recent one on my work computer, but I don't feel like looking right now. The layoff provisions in the one I do have at hand requires things like four weeks' notice. (For an allowed layoff for Holy Week or not more than seven days of the two weeks before Christmas...this is some ancient stuff.) |
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| re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:08 am EST 01/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere - sirpupnyc 11:28 pm EST 01/14/22 | |
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| I did not look at the recent one, because I am basically lazy, but I would have been surprised if I had never noticed a provision like that. My guess is that it dates back a long way, and has hung on in the 802 agreement because no one cared enough to take it out. One other observation: these are not the kind of provisions that work even when they are present. Exceptions are better dealt with as they arise (and they are, generally). We are in uncharted territory right now (an understatement) and there was an opportunity for a leader to step forward. That did not happen, for a variety of reasons. So we have informal ad hoc leadership, not necessarily palatable, and not effective as we have known since the passage of the Wagner Act. One more thing: anyone who thought Kevin McCollum of all people would send his books to a union has lost their mind. | |
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| re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 01:52 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: CNBC has this tidbit, which I’m not sure has been mentioned elsewhere - ryhog 12:08 am EST 01/15/22 | |
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| In the days before theatres were air conditioned, didn't productions sometimes shut down for the summer months and then reopen in the fall when the weather cooled off? I wonder how those "hiatuses" were handled. I wonder if these contract provisions may date from that time. | |
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| In short, NO! | |
| Posted by: TheHarveyBoy 06:16 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Are Actors Equity or other unions assisting productions in this unprecedented time? - Kerick 05:23 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Equity keeps making unreasonable demands on productions that are barely getting by. | |
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| re: In short: seriously? *NOW* the producers need partners? | |
| Last Edit: waterfall 08:42 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: waterfall 08:41 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: In short, NO! - TheHarveyBoy 06:16 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Please name those demands that Equity is making that you find so "unreasonable". I'm seeing requests for sick time. Issues to do with health and wellness. What are you seeing that you find so objectionable? Be specific, please. Producers have been making bank for many years now, with premium seating and such. Other than Hamilton, I never saw offers to share the wealth - which, fair enough, I suppose. The financial risk is theirs. Right now, however, company and crew are risking their very health to keep shows running. What are the producers doing to help them? FWIW, after 9/11, AEA and IATSE went on 3/4 pay for awhile to keep shows open |
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| Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Posted by: reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: In short: seriously? *NOW* the producers need partners? - waterfall 08:41 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| "A source at the Broadway League said: “We felt like the unions laughed at us, and did not listen to what we were proposing. It felt like the unions did not care if more people were put totally out of work or see more shows close. When they started objecting about the booster mandate, it was like, ‘Guys, we don’t have time for this. We are just trying to keep people alive.’ Union leaders are used to negotiating for months and months, creating problems. Their wholesale ‘no’ is what puts shows in jeopardy.” I'm not sure why or how Paul Masse, a pit keyboardist, was interviewed: "This is a producing responsibility, not an employee responsibility; staffing your show to the level needed to remain open is a management concern." This comment reflects the odd view that shows' temporary shut-downs are exclusively because of insufficient understudies and covers – neglecting other reasons, such as, say, plummeting audience attendance for a show already on the ropes, and the prospect of a show losing six digits a week, when it might survive if the COVID numbers improve (which they are in NYC, gradually). |
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| Link | https://www.thedailybeast.com/broadway-unions-revolt-over-proposal-to-half-workers-pay-during-covid-pauses |
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| Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? | |
| Last Edit: waterfall 01:05 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: waterfall 12:53 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Especially one with falsehoods? Take this quote, from an anonymous producer: "When [the unions] started objecting about the booster mandate, it was like, ‘Guys, we don’t have time for this. We are just trying to keep people alive.’ " Disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst. The unions have never, to my knowledge, objected to a booster mandate. That's outright libel. If you or the anonymous producer can point towards where unions have objected to the booster, please link it. It's THEIR HEALTH on the line. There have been negotiations regarding how many paid days off will be given if a bad reaction to boosters occurs, but I have not heard of a single instance of unions being anti-booster. What is your objection to Paul Masse, a pit keyboardist, being interviewed? Ought we not hear all voices? He has some valid viewpoints. "If employees are asked to accept a massive loss in income when the need to close the show arises, said Masse, then during weeks with full performances where a profit is made, it should be a part of the plan to use that profit to pay back the 50 percent incurred. “I have long advocated for profit-sharing as part of our union agreements. Transparency and a sense of shared responsibility, and shared success, are essential now.” Why is that such an alien concept? |
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| re: Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? | |
| Posted by: reed23 05:03 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? - waterfall 12:53 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| The line you quoted from the article does not state that Actors Equity objected TO a booster mandate, but ABOUT the booster mandate. And yes, the objections concerned how many paid days off there would be in the event of a bad reaction to the booster shot. I think Paul's interview followed one with the President or prominent figure of the Scenic Design union – so I was expecting someone of equal and current credentials from Local 802. Yes, Broadway profit-sharing with contract employees strikes me as a dramatically new, and extremely unlikely thing – what some might call "alien." And yes, since I knew even less about all this than one of the posters above, a single article with some explanation and background was quite helpful – when read, as one should read any article about anything, with understanding that journalists have individual degrees of their own perspective, possible agenda, and degree of accuracy. |
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| ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? - reed23 05:03 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| The line referenced was originally quoted by you, with the headline that this was what was actually going on, in response to a post that put the blame for this mess on producers. And the way that you shared it, without context, gave me, and I'm presuming others, the impression that Equity was opposed to a Booster Mandate that producers desperately wanted, hence that nonsense from the anonymous source about trying to save lives, when they were really haggling over sick leave. So you let us all think that Equity was objecting TO a booster mandate until it was pointed out that they weren't. | |
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| re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: reed23 06:33 am EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On - Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| For the second time, you've mischaracterized the quote from the article concerning booster shots; I indeed published the quote, which you then re-published and mischaracterized, and now you feel you've won an imaginary argument by claiming that the issue is who quoted it first, rather than who mischaracterized it. "About" does not equal "to," no matter how many times you insist it does. But no matter. Broadway is being severely impacted by the virus, some shows have and will continue to close, the producers of other shows will try to salvage them with these theoretically temporary closures, and hopefully the leveling off and decline in case numbers will allow some of them with money stashed in the bank to reopen, if anyone wants to see them. I'm optimistic from the medical information I've seen, and pessimistic about the production-union battles. |
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| re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:37 am EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On - reed23 06:33 am EST 01/14/22 | |
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| I want to avoid the back and forth y'all are having here, but I have a question and a comment. First, can you articulate what exactly you are pessimistic about? (I'm asking without an value judgment. I am just trying to understand a little more. I have my own sentiments, some of which I have expressed here.) Second, with regard to the booster issue, it is useful to quantify the dollar cost to producers. Doing so makes it clear that it is de minimis, which gets us back to the point of understanding what's going on at play and then assessing where leadership deficiencies play into so many of the problems we are confronting (or not). | |
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| re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: waterfall 09:28 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On - Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| I could spend more time countering reed23's posts, but I see little point in it. You have covered the most egregious of them. However, in the interest of accuracy, regarding this: "The line referenced was originally quoted by [reed23], with the headline that this was what was actually going on, in response to a post that put the blame for this mess on producers." I don't think I put the blame on producers. If I gave that impression, I'd like to correct that now. I am no fan of McCollum's as a rule, but I agree with him that Covid is to blame. Everything about this situation is prototypical. Solutions will not be easy. |
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| Let’s show some love to the pit musicians | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:56 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Some more words from Masse, Broadway conductor, which contained this truly shocking tidbit about how musicians are regarded by production: Producers, said Masse, “have zero responsibility for any musician to have even one person to replace them—in any event, be it illness, vacation, or whatever. Unlike an actor, who has a producer-provided understudy, any full-time musician at a Broadway show is 100 percent responsible for all performances, and must train substitute musicians at their own time and expense. “Those subs, who are under no obligation or contract to be available at any given time, are expected to learn a show without compensation and able to perform at a moment’s notice, without ever having rehearsed whatsoever. There are benefits to this system, but during this particular moment it is an astonishing fact that no effort has been made to improve upon it, and is a testament to the way shared success and symbiosis works among our musicians that the rest of the industry could stand to borrow from.” The full article is worth reading for its sober, complex dive into the pain Broadway is going through as everyone grapples with the deep problems of the business model. |
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| re: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:58 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians - Singapore/Fling 11:56 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| “Those subs, who are under no obligation or contract to be available at any given time, are expected to learn a show without compensation and able to perform at a moment’s notice, without ever having rehearsed whatsoever. There are benefits to this system, but during this particular moment it is an astonishing fact that no effort has been made to improve upon it, and is a testament to the way shared success and symbiosis works among our musicians that the rest of the industry could stand to borrow from.” What exactly are the benefits of this system? I can't think of another job category where someone in a position must find and train potential covers or replacements at their own expense on their own time. I had no idea that producers didn't audition musicians, hire them, and then pay them to rehearse and learn the material the same as they pay actors. That's awful. I cannot imagine why their union wouldn't have addressed this issue decades ago. |
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| re: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians/crew | |
| Last Edit: waterfall 11:48 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: waterfall 11:35 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians - JereNYC 04:58 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| "I can't think of another job category where someone in a position must find and train potential covers or replacements at their own expense on their own time." The show's musician is the one that has to find their sub, but it's the sub putting in the unpaid time and work, as they "shadow" the musician as they perform during the show. " I cannot imagine why their union wouldn't have addressed this issue decades ago." They may well have. Unions do not always get what they negotiate for. Back in the aughts, 802 struck over a proposed "virtual orchestra". Its purpose was to replace multiple live musicians with a machine in order to bring costs down. The strike closed Broadway for 2 days. They were successful in that case, because the "karaoke machine" (as it was derisively known) was actually tried out and was a miserable failure. IATSE (Local One and International, can't speak to the others) was in the same situation until some years ago. Crew still have to find their own subs (which honestly, does make sense), but now subs are paid to train. Here's the thing. Most of you know that actors' standbys and understudies are contracted for and paid to be dedicated to one specific show, available at a moment's notice. They are on site. This is not true of musicians and stagehands. Subs are trained, but since they obviously can't survive on one show's occasional work, they are forced to learn other shows. As a result, they are often unavailable, particularly in the case of an emergency. More than once, I was working on my own show when an accident/sudden illness occurred, on a show I had subbed for in the past, close to curtain. None of their subs were available on such short notice, so my sub, who lived in Times Square, raced to my theater to run my show, while I dashed to revisit a show I hadn't run in years. |
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| re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:15 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| As I have been saying for a pretty long time, there is a leadership vacuum. on both sides. The league has lost all credibility by the jaw-dropping level of cluelessness, and AEA has not found a way to bridge the tension between its dual obligations to its members (by which I mean keeping people working, and keeping people safe). Wanna ask the tough question? Ask for a transparent audit of SVOG. Then let's talk. The facts are: there is no economically viable path for a lot of the shows that are currently running; the cost of AEA's proposal, even in its full form, is de minimis; and there are delusional people on both sides. |
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| re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 11:18 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 11:13 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - ryhog 10:15 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| And anecdotal evidence here matters: I've sat in 8 audiences since 9/14, most less than half full (other than a gifted return to Hamilton), everyone chatting about the use of TDF or the equivalent. Balconies are empty, the rear mezz closed off. Two friends were among 200 in the expanse of the 1200 seat Beaumont recently; I sat there with about 500. There is no economic model that supports this new reality wherein only Music Man, Six, and Hamilton define success. | |
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| re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:57 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - Delvino 11:13 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| agreed and generally confirmed. I think there is all sorts of projecting going on right now, both inside and outside the business. I think we are going to see a lot more adjustments before we are done. If this season has proven one thing it is that leaving the marketing people in charge has been a poor choice. (I'd also point out, as I have, that the SVOG and similar money has prompted a whole host of economic distortions. Its heart was in the right place but acting quick (which was essential) deprives us of quality analysis. | |
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