Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Posted by: reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: In short: seriously? *NOW* the producers need partners? - waterfall 08:41 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| "A source at the Broadway League said: “We felt like the unions laughed at us, and did not listen to what we were proposing. It felt like the unions did not care if more people were put totally out of work or see more shows close. When they started objecting about the booster mandate, it was like, ‘Guys, we don’t have time for this. We are just trying to keep people alive.’ Union leaders are used to negotiating for months and months, creating problems. Their wholesale ‘no’ is what puts shows in jeopardy.” I'm not sure why or how Paul Masse, a pit keyboardist, was interviewed: "This is a producing responsibility, not an employee responsibility; staffing your show to the level needed to remain open is a management concern." This comment reflects the odd view that shows' temporary shut-downs are exclusively because of insufficient understudies and covers – neglecting other reasons, such as, say, plummeting audience attendance for a show already on the ropes, and the prospect of a show losing six digits a week, when it might survive if the COVID numbers improve (which they are in NYC, gradually). |
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| Link | https://www.thedailybeast.com/broadway-unions-revolt-over-proposal-to-half-workers-pay-during-covid-pauses |
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| Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? | |
| Last Edit: waterfall 01:05 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: waterfall 12:53 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Especially one with falsehoods? Take this quote, from an anonymous producer: "When [the unions] started objecting about the booster mandate, it was like, ‘Guys, we don’t have time for this. We are just trying to keep people alive.’ " Disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst. The unions have never, to my knowledge, objected to a booster mandate. That's outright libel. If you or the anonymous producer can point towards where unions have objected to the booster, please link it. It's THEIR HEALTH on the line. There have been negotiations regarding how many paid days off will be given if a bad reaction to boosters occurs, but I have not heard of a single instance of unions being anti-booster. What is your objection to Paul Masse, a pit keyboardist, being interviewed? Ought we not hear all voices? He has some valid viewpoints. "If employees are asked to accept a massive loss in income when the need to close the show arises, said Masse, then during weeks with full performances where a profit is made, it should be a part of the plan to use that profit to pay back the 50 percent incurred. “I have long advocated for profit-sharing as part of our union agreements. Transparency and a sense of shared responsibility, and shared success, are essential now.” Why is that such an alien concept? |
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| re: Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? | |
| Posted by: reed23 05:03 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? - waterfall 12:53 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| The line you quoted from the article does not state that Actors Equity objected TO a booster mandate, but ABOUT the booster mandate. And yes, the objections concerned how many paid days off there would be in the event of a bad reaction to the booster shot. I think Paul's interview followed one with the President or prominent figure of the Scenic Design union – so I was expecting someone of equal and current credentials from Local 802. Yes, Broadway profit-sharing with contract employees strikes me as a dramatically new, and extremely unlikely thing – what some might call "alien." And yes, since I knew even less about all this than one of the posters above, a single article with some explanation and background was quite helpful – when read, as one should read any article about anything, with understanding that journalists have individual degrees of their own perspective, possible agenda, and degree of accuracy. |
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| ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think that one article shows "what's actually going on"? - reed23 05:03 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| The line referenced was originally quoted by you, with the headline that this was what was actually going on, in response to a post that put the blame for this mess on producers. And the way that you shared it, without context, gave me, and I'm presuming others, the impression that Equity was opposed to a Booster Mandate that producers desperately wanted, hence that nonsense from the anonymous source about trying to save lives, when they were really haggling over sick leave. So you let us all think that Equity was objecting TO a booster mandate until it was pointed out that they weren't. | |
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| re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: reed23 06:33 am EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On - Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| For the second time, you've mischaracterized the quote from the article concerning booster shots; I indeed published the quote, which you then re-published and mischaracterized, and now you feel you've won an imaginary argument by claiming that the issue is who quoted it first, rather than who mischaracterized it. "About" does not equal "to," no matter how many times you insist it does. But no matter. Broadway is being severely impacted by the virus, some shows have and will continue to close, the producers of other shows will try to salvage them with these theoretically temporary closures, and hopefully the leveling off and decline in case numbers will allow some of them with money stashed in the bank to reopen, if anyone wants to see them. I'm optimistic from the medical information I've seen, and pessimistic about the production-union battles. |
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| re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:37 am EST 01/14/22 | |
| In reply to: re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On - reed23 06:33 am EST 01/14/22 | |
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| I want to avoid the back and forth y'all are having here, but I have a question and a comment. First, can you articulate what exactly you are pessimistic about? (I'm asking without an value judgment. I am just trying to understand a little more. I have my own sentiments, some of which I have expressed here.) Second, with regard to the booster issue, it is useful to quantify the dollar cost to producers. Doing so makes it clear that it is de minimis, which gets us back to the point of understanding what's going on at play and then assessing where leadership deficiencies play into so many of the problems we are confronting (or not). | |
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| re: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On | |
| Posted by: waterfall 09:28 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: ??? or Here's What's Actually Actually Going On - Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| I could spend more time countering reed23's posts, but I see little point in it. You have covered the most egregious of them. However, in the interest of accuracy, regarding this: "The line referenced was originally quoted by [reed23], with the headline that this was what was actually going on, in response to a post that put the blame for this mess on producers." I don't think I put the blame on producers. If I gave that impression, I'd like to correct that now. I am no fan of McCollum's as a rule, but I agree with him that Covid is to blame. Everything about this situation is prototypical. Solutions will not be easy. |
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| Let’s show some love to the pit musicians | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:56 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| Some more words from Masse, Broadway conductor, which contained this truly shocking tidbit about how musicians are regarded by production: Producers, said Masse, “have zero responsibility for any musician to have even one person to replace them—in any event, be it illness, vacation, or whatever. Unlike an actor, who has a producer-provided understudy, any full-time musician at a Broadway show is 100 percent responsible for all performances, and must train substitute musicians at their own time and expense. “Those subs, who are under no obligation or contract to be available at any given time, are expected to learn a show without compensation and able to perform at a moment’s notice, without ever having rehearsed whatsoever. There are benefits to this system, but during this particular moment it is an astonishing fact that no effort has been made to improve upon it, and is a testament to the way shared success and symbiosis works among our musicians that the rest of the industry could stand to borrow from.” The full article is worth reading for its sober, complex dive into the pain Broadway is going through as everyone grapples with the deep problems of the business model. |
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| re: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:58 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians - Singapore/Fling 11:56 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| “Those subs, who are under no obligation or contract to be available at any given time, are expected to learn a show without compensation and able to perform at a moment’s notice, without ever having rehearsed whatsoever. There are benefits to this system, but during this particular moment it is an astonishing fact that no effort has been made to improve upon it, and is a testament to the way shared success and symbiosis works among our musicians that the rest of the industry could stand to borrow from.” What exactly are the benefits of this system? I can't think of another job category where someone in a position must find and train potential covers or replacements at their own expense on their own time. I had no idea that producers didn't audition musicians, hire them, and then pay them to rehearse and learn the material the same as they pay actors. That's awful. I cannot imagine why their union wouldn't have addressed this issue decades ago. |
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| re: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians/crew | |
| Last Edit: waterfall 11:48 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: waterfall 11:35 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Let’s show some love to the pit musicians - JereNYC 04:58 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
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| "I can't think of another job category where someone in a position must find and train potential covers or replacements at their own expense on their own time." The show's musician is the one that has to find their sub, but it's the sub putting in the unpaid time and work, as they "shadow" the musician as they perform during the show. " I cannot imagine why their union wouldn't have addressed this issue decades ago." They may well have. Unions do not always get what they negotiate for. Back in the aughts, 802 struck over a proposed "virtual orchestra". Its purpose was to replace multiple live musicians with a machine in order to bring costs down. The strike closed Broadway for 2 days. They were successful in that case, because the "karaoke machine" (as it was derisively known) was actually tried out and was a miserable failure. IATSE (Local One and International, can't speak to the others) was in the same situation until some years ago. Crew still have to find their own subs (which honestly, does make sense), but now subs are paid to train. Here's the thing. Most of you know that actors' standbys and understudies are contracted for and paid to be dedicated to one specific show, available at a moment's notice. They are on site. This is not true of musicians and stagehands. Subs are trained, but since they obviously can't survive on one show's occasional work, they are forced to learn other shows. As a result, they are often unavailable, particularly in the case of an emergency. More than once, I was working on my own show when an accident/sudden illness occurred, on a show I had subbed for in the past, close to curtain. None of their subs were available on such short notice, so my sub, who lived in Times Square, raced to my theater to run my show, while I dashed to revisit a show I hadn't run in years. |
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| re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:15 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - reed23 09:38 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| As I have been saying for a pretty long time, there is a leadership vacuum. on both sides. The league has lost all credibility by the jaw-dropping level of cluelessness, and AEA has not found a way to bridge the tension between its dual obligations to its members (by which I mean keeping people working, and keeping people safe). Wanna ask the tough question? Ask for a transparent audit of SVOG. Then let's talk. The facts are: there is no economically viable path for a lot of the shows that are currently running; the cost of AEA's proposal, even in its full form, is de minimis; and there are delusional people on both sides. |
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| re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 11:18 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 11:13 am EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - ryhog 10:15 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| And anecdotal evidence here matters: I've sat in 8 audiences since 9/14, most less than half full (other than a gifted return to Hamilton), everyone chatting about the use of TDF or the equivalent. Balconies are empty, the rear mezz closed off. Two friends were among 200 in the expanse of the 1200 seat Beaumont recently; I sat there with about 500. There is no economic model that supports this new reality wherein only Music Man, Six, and Hamilton define success. | |
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| re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:57 pm EST 01/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Meanwhile, what's actually going on... - Delvino 11:13 am EST 01/13/22 | |
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| agreed and generally confirmed. I think there is all sorts of projecting going on right now, both inside and outside the business. I think we are going to see a lot more adjustments before we are done. If this season has proven one thing it is that leaving the marketing people in charge has been a poor choice. (I'd also point out, as I have, that the SVOG and similar money has prompted a whole host of economic distortions. Its heart was in the right place but acting quick (which was essential) deprives us of quality analysis. | |
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