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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO | |
| Posted by: kess0078 07:21 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
| In reply to: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO - T.B._Admin. 01:25 pm EST 01/16/22 | |
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| This reviewer asserts that the ending has been “rewritten,” but I seem to recall that one of the things buzzed about this production, despite a vastly different directorial approach, did not change any of the book as written. Am I mistaken or misremembering? | |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:49 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO - kess0078 07:21 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
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| That was the claim. However, the claim is not true -- I have the text in front of me. Slight changes were definitely made in the text to reflect the fact that Curly deliberately kills Jud after Jud asks Curly to shoot him and also to reflect that Jud does not fall on his knife. Obviously huge changes in Hammerstein's stage directions, which are really part of the original text -- ask any respected theatre historian, if you don't believe me -- were made to explain the changed ending. This is the problem when people lie to your face and get away with it because many of us are too polite to call a lie a lie. Shades of Donald Trump, don't you think? |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: musicalsfan 11:50 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - BroadwayTonyJ 09:49 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
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| In Hammerstein's script, Jud starts a fight with Curly. During it Jud falls or is pushed down, and someone says "he fell on his own knife". I haven't seen the current production since it hasn't yet come to my area, but as mentioned above, apparently that line has been removed in this revision of the show. In the play "Green Grow the Lilacs" upon which the musical was based, there's a whole page of dialog about how Jud (called Jeeter in the play) falls on his own knife, during a fight that he started by trying to burn Laurey and Curly to death by setting a hay stack they're sitting on top of on fire. (as also happens in the film version of the musical). So - The creators of both the original play and the musical specifically wanted the action to be that Jud's death was an accident that happened because of his own actions, thereby making it somewhat justifiable that the people of the community were willing to so quickly find that Curly was innocent of killing Jud. The difference between that and how It seems the incident is portrayed in this revised version of the script creates a big change from the intent of the writers who created both the musical and the play the musical was based on. As I've said above, I haven't been able to see this new production and it seems to me that some dimensions of it are both interesting and appropriate, like the new orchestrations, singing styles, and down-to-earth look of the costumes and setting. But changing this important plot point and apparently changing the tone of the show's ending moments seems presumptuous, unfair and disrespectful to its original creators. |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 12:09 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 12:08 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - musicalsfan 11:50 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
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| So - The creators of both the original play and the musical specifically wanted the action to be that Jud's death was an accident that happened because of his own actions, thereby making it somewhat justifiable that the people of the community were willing to so quickly find that Curly was innocent of killing Jud. The difference between that and how It seems the incident is portrayed in this revised version of the script creates a big change from the intent of the writers who created both the musical and the play the musical was based on. Agreed that it creates a change but my sense is that the original story ends intentionally with a bitter-sweet taste of frontier justice. |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 12:40 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 12:29 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - singleticket 12:08 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
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| Actually, I think the kangaroo court at the end was Oscar Hammerstein's invention. I remember having a discussion here about this previously and I remember admiring many of Hammerstein's additions. | |
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| "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:10 pm EST 01/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - singleticket 12:29 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
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| In Hammerstein's original text (and stage directions), the legal proceedings against Curly are not really a kangaroo court since Jud Fry's death is an open-and-shut case of self-defense, witnessed by the entire group at the shivaree/hazing: "He" (referring to Jud) "socks Curly. . . . Jud pulls out a knife and goes for Curly. . . . Jud falls on his knife, groans and lies still." In the Fish revival, the proceedings definitely are a kangaroo court because Curly shoots and kills Jud (without any substantial justification) and then blatantly denies it when, at first coached by Carnes, and then when questioned by said Carnes, both actions being witnessed by the entire ensemble. Curly is obviously guilty of perjury and most likely guilty of second degree murder. Nevertheless, Carnes (and Eller) declare him not guilty, despite the objections of both Cord Elam (verbal) and Mike (facial expression and body language). The trial is an obvious miscarriage of justice in which all present (morally) share the guilt. Shades of Wellman's 1940 film The Ox-Bow Incident, but also (and more relevantly) Huston's 1960 film The Unforgiven, in which a character played by June Walker (the original Laurey Williams) carries out morally ambiguous vigilante justice against an individual reminiscent of Jud Fry. I'll wager Fish has seen both films. I saw the Oklahoma! revival last night and brought Hammerstein's text with me. In the climactic scene, at least 3 lines of original dialogue have been changed or deleted. A new line (I assume by Fish), in which Curly denies that he shot Fry, has been added. |
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| re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: singleticket 12:48 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
| In reply to: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - BroadwayTonyJ 02:10 pm EST 01/19/22 | |
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| In Hammerstein's original text (and stage directions), the legal proceedings against Curly are not really a kangaroo court since Jud Fry's death is an open-and-shut case of self-defense, witnessed by the entire group at the shivaree/hazing... I would disagree, even Nunn's production reinforced the extra-judicial quality of the ending. The case is not tried in court but in a community that never liked Jud Fry to begin with. It's a very ambiguous moment and one that can be played in a spectrum of ways. |
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| re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 01:46 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - singleticket 12:48 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
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| A kangaroo court is a deliberate miscarriage of justice. In Hammerstein's book, the struggle between Curly and Jud is witnessed by the community. It's an open-and-shut case of not guilty on the grounds of self-defense. Everyone present agrees. There is no ambiguity at all. It's unconventional and certainly expedient that the trial takes place at the Eller and Williams farm, but no one is perpetrating a miscarriage of justice. Examples of a kangaroo court can be found in classic films like Destry Rides Again, The Westerner, The Sea of Grass, and others but not in Oklahoma!. In the Fish version, Curly murders Fry and this is witnessed by all present. Nevertheless, Carnes coaches Curly to commit perjury. Then together with Eller proclaims him not guilty -- that is the definition of a kangaroo court. In Tuesday's performance, at least two members of the community (Cord Elam and Mike) are obviously disturbed by this decision, which is a miscarriage of justice. For several years now, individuals connected to the production have been declaring that not a word of Hammerstein's text was changed. As far as I know, however, I don't believe Fish has ever said that. Nevertheless, that is a complete and utter falsehood. The problem is when a lie is repeated often enough, people begin to believe it. |
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| re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 07:51 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 07:47 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - BroadwayTonyJ 01:46 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
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| It's an open-and-shut case of not guilty on the grounds of self-defense. There is no open-and-shut case as the case is not tried in a court of law. It's decided largely by Judge Aunt Eller. Frontier justice as a way of tying up loose ends is a trope that runs through the musical particularly the shotgun wedding of Ado Annie. The original Lynn Riggs play leaves the question of Curly's possible repercussions with the law unanswered. Hammerstein added the community justice scene, you don't have to call it a kangeroo court if you don't want to. unlike the musical, the end of Green Grow The Lilacs is left rather undecided as to Curly's trial for accidentally killing farmhand Jeeter (renamed Jud Fry in the musical). I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I found Fish's addition to rise quite organically from the musical itself though it was indeed an addition. |
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| Link | Green Grow the Lilacs |
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| re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 08:21 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:20 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - singleticket 07:47 pm EST 01/20/22 | |
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| Eller is not the judge. Her comment carries no weight. She just echoes Carnes' verdict. Under the circumstances I'm sure Carnes had the authority to set up a court wherever he deemed necessary. Curly would have been judged not guilty no matter where the trial took place. A technicality is not a miscarriage of justice. Hammerstein's named his play Oklahoma!. It's not the same as Riggs' play. Fish should have written or commissioned his own work if he felt so strongly about frontier justice. Instead he took a famous piece by an esteemed playwright like Hammerstein and totally distorted the original's intent for God knows what purpose. |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:53 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - musicalsfan 11:50 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
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| Are you sure that line was cut? My memory is that they say it, and it's impactful because we see the community rewriting the event they just saw in order to make Curly the innocent party. | |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:46 am EST 01/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - Singapore/Fling 11:53 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
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| The line was definitely cut when I saw it on Broadway. I have the text in front of me. It is Curly who exclaims "Look -- Look at him! Fell on his own knife." Obviously, in the Broadway production, Curly, having shot Jud dead with Jud's gun, would not then say that Jud fell on his own knife. I agree with much (a whole lot, actually) of what you said about the production. It was strikingly designed and staged. I loved the ensemble acting, particularly Damon Daunno, James Davis, Patrick Vaill, Ali Stroker, and others. The new orchestrations were excellent. I liked the homoeroticism that was evident in the show. I disagreed with the changed ending and I did not like the ballet. However, the pluses outweighed the minuses. I actually had no intention of seeing the Chicago production, but my partner entered the lottery yesterday morning -- AND WON! So we are going tonight. He's excited because he didn't see the Broadway revival with me. Looking at the text carefully. I suspect that other lines were cut also since everyone who is present at this shivaree/hazing actually witnessed Curly shoot and kill Jud. I'll try to take notes and post tomorrow. When the show first began performances, there was a thread on ATC where a certain poster (who had not seen the show) suggested that the line about Jud falling on his knife could have been spoken very softly and thus many audience members would not have heard it. However, when I saw the production, I was seated in the first row very close to the action, the line was definitely not spoken by Curly or anyone else. |
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| "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO -- at the CIBC Theatre | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:35 pm EST 01/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - BroadwayTonyJ 08:46 am EST 01/18/22 | |
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| Found a parking spot right away, only 8 blocks or so from the theater. Excellent seats: 8th row, Orch, House Right, slightly off center. Not bad for a lottery seat. |
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| re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL | |
| Posted by: musicalsfan 12:31 am EST 01/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: TB REGIONAL REVIEW: "OKLAHOMA!" in CHICAGO (HUGE SPOILERS) -- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS REVIVAL - Singapore/Fling 11:53 pm EST 01/17/22 | |
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| Since I haven't seen this production, I don't know for sure that the line was cut. I've only heard/read that it has or had originally been. Regardless of whether or not the line's there, and regardless if its meaning has been changed in this production to make a statement that the community is lying, the physical action of Curly shooting Jud rather than Jud falling on his own knife is or was there, as I've heard from several people who have seen the production. It's still a changing of the story line and intention of the writers, which in this scene in this production have apparently been twisted. | |
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