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| Query about Shipoopi | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 09:40 pm EST 02/11/22 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 09:39 pm EST 02/11/22 | |
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| Someone here suggested that Shipoopi had been rewritten to be politically correct. So the sadder but wiser girl is not denigrated, etc. But if this point of view is not expressed, then where’s the arc for Harold Hill to fall in love with Marian in a very special and new way he’s never before experienced? Wasn’t it implied that he’s had, used, and cast aside many Marians before, but this time is different? It sounds like another instance where political correctness may be flattening the humanity and the authenticity in a story line. Yes? (I didn’t see this version, but, come on, Marian is different. That’s part of the point of the play.) And, until this time around, Hill always was a kinda schmuck. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: wmgrad1976 08:00 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: Query about Shipoopi - lordofspeech 09:39 pm EST 02/11/22 | |
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| No dewy young miss who keeps resisting All the time she keeps insisting I'm surprised the PC police over there at the new Music Man didn't try to scrub that Sadder But Wiser Girl lyric. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 01:39 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:36 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - wmgrad1976 08:00 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Those lyrics might make some a bit uncomfortable at a quick scan, but the story being told in the context can be played that this young woman is driving the relationship. It does get a bit into “no means yes” territory, but even with that read, Hill doesn’t say that he then violates this young woman, he just moves on to someone else. So her consent is respected. The Shipoopi lyrics are far less ambiguous: “Well, a woman who'll kiss on the very first date Is usually a hussy And a woman who'll kiss on the second time out Is anything but fussy But a woman who'll wait till the third time around Head in the clouds, feet on the ground She's the girl you're glad you found She's your shipoopi … Squeeze her once, when she isn't lookin' If you get a squeeze back, that's fancy cookin'” And this celebration of slut shaming and non-consensual touching is the Act Two rousing comedy group number! The new lyrics might not be the best answer, but the song as written is toxic, and there’s no way it could be done that way on Broadway in 2022. The question for y’all is: do you want to see The Music Man with slight changes or do you not want to see The Music Man? |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 06:55 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Singapore/Fling 01:36 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| The new lyrics might not be the best answer, but the song as written is toxic, and there’s no way it could be done that way on Broadway in 2022. The question for y’all is: do you want to see The Music Man with slight changes or do you not want to see The Music Man? I want to see a revival of a show that has held up for more than 60 years because it's a good show be performed exactly the way its author wrote it and exactly as that author meant it to be. (In fact, I insist on it, and if I "can't" see it on Broadway, then screw Broadway and I'll go see it somewhere else.) That "Shipoopi" lyric that upsets you so is "toxic" because Willson damned well meant it to be what you mean by "toxic," and most people even in 1957 knew damned well that it was "toxic" (although nobody in 1957 would have used that word in that sense). They knew it was "wrong"--but the character who sings it doesn't know it, and that's the comic point. He is merely stating what he thinks--correctly or not--"the Rules" were in Iowa in 1912. And one of the many things I particularly like about that comic lyric is the rhyming juxtaposition of the very blunt "hussy" with the suddenly prissy and indirect "anything but fussy." Art is full of complications, implications, and nuances that, rather suddenly, seem to have become quite beyond the grasp of a lot of people in the 21st century. If it's really true (though I know it isn't) that The Music Man as written "can't" be done on Broadway in 2022, then there's something terminally wrong with Broadway. Namely, that it's going the way of mid-18th century English drama, when they bowdlerized all the tragedy and all the drama out of Shakespeare, along with the "toxic" words. Or, in four words, it's dying of censorship. The question for y'all is, do you want Broadway to be the crucible of a living art form (one that celebrates its best works by performing them respectfully even in revival), or do you want it to be a frozen and fossilized theme park, where nothing can ever possibly happen that would upset the smallest child? (Even though we all really know that very little ever happens that truly upsets small children.) Art is supposed to upset you. The theater is an art. If you don't ever want to be upset, go live in Disneyland. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:36 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - keikekaze 06:55 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| But Broadway isn’t really a space for art, and it hasn’t been for most of my adult lifetime. Art generally runs for two or three months at most, and it rarely gets away with charging premium prices. I’m all for at that unsettles and provokes - I can’t wait for “A Strange Loop” - but that is not what most folks are paying for when they plop down $700 to see Hugh and Sutton. At these prices, art is hard to come by. If you want to see art, you gotta go Off-Broadway or further afield. Every so often, something from those ranks manages to make it to Broadway (though not always with its guts intact), but Broadway doesn’t exist to be a crucible for art. I’m sorry to be the one to break that to you. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Chatty2007 11:06 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - keikekaze 06:55 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Go live in Disneyland? Disneyland is art. Who do you think designed the rides, who built them and painted them, and the costumes that employees wear? Who wrote the music you hear, created the special effects, filmed the video that's used? A lot of Disneyland is based on movies – movies that are made by writers, composers, animators, actors, designers, etc. etc. In other words, artists! I think what you mean was something more like "go live in an empty field" if you're trying to convey an empty place that has no art. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:38 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - keikekaze 06:55 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| ...and most people even in 1957 knew damned well that it was "toxic" (although nobody in 1957 would have used that word in that sense). They knew it was "wrong"--but the character who sings it doesn't know it, and that's the comic point. He is merely stating what he thinks--correctly or not--"the Rules" were in Iowa in 1912. And one of the many things I particularly like about that comic lyric is the rhyming juxtaposition of the very blunt "hussy" with the suddenly prissy and indirect "anything but fussy." Frankly, I think even you are way overanalyzing the song. The way I've always heard the song, it's exactly that - just a diegetic song - that we have to surmise has probably been around for a good while before July 4, 1912. Marcellus is merely the one leading it, he's not making it up, or "stating what he thinks" about "1912 Iowa rules." Much like we're supposed to understand that "Lida Rose" and "It's You" and "Sincere" are old songs that everyone in 1912 would have known, and that all of a sudden the School Board can't resist harmonizing on. (Willson was quite smart to juxtapose those made-up songs he wrote with real ones like the Minuet In G and Rustles of Spring and Columbia, The Gem Of The Ocean to give it all a real-life context.) Also - in that same regard, "Shipoopi" is and always was a bawdy song. It was meant to be that in the context of 1912 let alone in 1957 or 2022. For the youngsters who are mostly the ones dancing, it's a chance to challenge their elders -- just as in the myriad of current (and hysterically funny) Youtube videos that show teens playing "WAP" for their parents. And for the older characters singing the song, it s an equal chance to let it all out and be a little naughty too. If it worked that way in Willson's sorta-fictionalized 1912 River City, it should still have a similar level of shock value in 2022. And that's why changing the lyrics was just a stupid thing to do. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 10:51 pm EST 02/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Chromolume 07:38 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Frankly, I think even you are way overanalyzing the song. For that matter, so do I! ; ) And I had forgotten that "Shipoopi" is really a diegetic song rather than a book song for Marcellus. My bad--but it makes the attempt to bowdlerize it just that much more ridiculous. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:29 pm EST 02/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Chromolume 07:38 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| But what is the bawdiness and sense of shocking fun that this song about avoiding girls who are “easy” but also making sure to sneak a secret squeeze is meant to convey? “WAP” is a song about female empowerment through radical sexual ownership. “Shipoopi” is really the complete opposite, a song about shaming women who put out while placing the onus for physical exploration on the man who acts without consent. A new lyric more in line with “WAP” might have fulfilled this original purpose to be bawdy without importing the misogyny of 1957 (an era not known for its respect of female autonomy and empowerment) for us to all tap our feet to. |
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| re: Great post, Chromolume! | |
| Posted by: Guillaume 05:26 pm EST 02/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Chromolume 07:38 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| totally agree! | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: garyd 10:09 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Chromolume 07:38 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Of course it is a bawdy song. It is a fun song. I seriously doubt Tommy Djilas would suggest Marcellus sing it if it were not. I also seriously doubt he would suggest Marcellus sing this revised nonsense. (then again, it has a good beat and you can dance to it:) ) | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi - Like a new 1930s film Production Code for GOOBOs | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:26 am EST 02/15/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:16 am EST 02/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - garyd 10:09 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| They might as well censor the "I was drunk last night, dear Mother", that little Tootie sings in the movie "Meet Me In St. Louis" for similar reasons. "Shipoopi" is meant to be bawdy, fun and suggestive. Another case of the new production being afraid of the GOOBOs (those getting off on being offended). Almost like a new updated Production Code from 1930s movies is somehow censoring classic works. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Deirdre 06:24 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: Query about Shipoopi - lordofspeech 09:39 pm EST 02/11/22 | |
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| I agree. And I think he has to be a bit of a schmuck to make the storyline interesting - if he starts out as a nice, kinda boring guy, he just stays a nice, kinda boring guy. Harold Hill should be a little dangerous and a lot sexy so we can see Marian make a shift and he has to change too - he just kind of stays the same in this production. I felt like Jackman didn’t want to be unlikeable. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 08:19 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Deirdre 06:24 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Did you see the revival of The Unsinkable Molly Brown a few years ago? She was so perfectly woke that the second act was unendurable. They took her flirtation with the European man and made Molly's husband the character with the flirtation. Justifiably, female reviewer at the NYT said, "Where's the moral ambiguity?" Another person said, "Do we really need to be patronized this way? Aren't we grownups?" Maybe Jackman wanted the character cleaned up so Ivanka wouldn't be reminded of anyone she knows. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: writerkev 06:41 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Deirdre 06:24 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Is it the same affliction that seemingly hit “The Tap Dance Kid,” which scrubbed any reference to a character being fat? Lyrics in “Music Man” were changed so as not to possibly sound anything less than feminist? Of course that’s going to water everything down. How can anyone tell stories this way?? The phrase “PC police” used to be a dog whistle used by conservatives afraid of positive change, but I fear the pendulum has now swung so far, the phrase is becoming something truly worth fearing. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: lanky 08:23 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - writerkev 06:41 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| "How can anyone tell stories this way?" Indeed. How can one accurately reflect a period, its people and the ways they behaved and talked? "The Music Man" (case in point) takes place in 1912, not 2022. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Delvino 09:11 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - lanky 08:23 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Precisely the point I raised on another site: Here's the problem with that vexing "Shipoopi": the menfolk of the era and geographic isolation had no logical pathway to the revelations in the new lyric. They have been adjusted via a slick new time machine, corrected by a cosmic overview that recognizes gender bias and the ugliness and immorality in shaming women. Rather than observe the buffoonery in the period-specific misogyny -- which Willson shrewdly knew the leading character, Marian, counters with her own unapologetic agency -- we are now asked to accept male clarity that's still hard to inspire in post-millennial America (see Incel movement, see, oh, where do we start? Hobby Lobby?). Was there a solution to the lyric? Maybe not. But shoehorning epiphanies into a show that takes place 110 years ago feels both artistically suspect and sociologically fraudulent. At least we have Marian, the wisest woman on stage, to show us that women don't need to be categorized or humiliated. But Willson knew that in 1957. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: reed23 07:10 pm EST 02/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Delvino 09:11 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Yours is a superior paragraph, analysis and explanation of this issue. I hope I can figure out who you are on "the other site!" |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: lanky 09:15 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Delvino 09:11 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Well said. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 08:54 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - lanky 08:23 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Gosh, the anti-PC, anti-woke brigade sure got an early start this morning! If we're aiming at 1912 fidelity, how far do you insist it should "accurately reflect the period"? Is even having non-white actors a step too far? |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:43 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - MockingbirdGirl 08:54 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| If we're aiming at 1912 fidelity, how far do you insist it should "accurately reflect the period"? Is even having non-white actors a step too far? Since you're using the word "actors," I'll bite: Did you mean that in 1912, black actors would not have been cast as part of a "regular" ensemble in a musical? Or did you mean that in 2022 we still cannot accept that idea that BIPOC actors can play anything but BIPOC roles? |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 01:16 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Chromolume 12:43 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| I am trying to ascertain if those who insist the show must "accurately reflect a period, its people and the ways they behaved and talked" believe the diversity of the cast to be objectionable by that standard. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:50 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - MockingbirdGirl 01:16 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Yes. The question I asked still applies. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 01:23 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:23 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - MockingbirdGirl 01:16 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| They didn't change the text of "Der Rosenkavalier" when they had black Sophies like Kathleen Battle or Barbara Hendricks and despite taking place in 1740s Vienna, it doesn't and shouldn't matter. Cast "Music Man" with whoever can do the roles, but don't tinker with a book and songs that Meredith Willson went through something like 35 drafts of to make it Broadway worthy, as well as writing plenty of songs along the way that he discarded to make the show "just right" for the River City he envisioned and was honoring, and not making a cartoon of or ridiculing, which some of the reviews seem to think this production has done. | |
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