Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Deirdre 06:24 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: Query about Shipoopi - lordofspeech 09:39 pm EST 02/11/22 | |
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| I agree. And I think he has to be a bit of a schmuck to make the storyline interesting - if he starts out as a nice, kinda boring guy, he just stays a nice, kinda boring guy. Harold Hill should be a little dangerous and a lot sexy so we can see Marian make a shift and he has to change too - he just kind of stays the same in this production. I felt like Jackman didn’t want to be unlikeable. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 08:19 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Deirdre 06:24 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Did you see the revival of The Unsinkable Molly Brown a few years ago? She was so perfectly woke that the second act was unendurable. They took her flirtation with the European man and made Molly's husband the character with the flirtation. Justifiably, female reviewer at the NYT said, "Where's the moral ambiguity?" Another person said, "Do we really need to be patronized this way? Aren't we grownups?" Maybe Jackman wanted the character cleaned up so Ivanka wouldn't be reminded of anyone she knows. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: writerkev 06:41 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Deirdre 06:24 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Is it the same affliction that seemingly hit “The Tap Dance Kid,” which scrubbed any reference to a character being fat? Lyrics in “Music Man” were changed so as not to possibly sound anything less than feminist? Of course that’s going to water everything down. How can anyone tell stories this way?? The phrase “PC police” used to be a dog whistle used by conservatives afraid of positive change, but I fear the pendulum has now swung so far, the phrase is becoming something truly worth fearing. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: lanky 08:23 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - writerkev 06:41 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| "How can anyone tell stories this way?" Indeed. How can one accurately reflect a period, its people and the ways they behaved and talked? "The Music Man" (case in point) takes place in 1912, not 2022. |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Delvino 09:11 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - lanky 08:23 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Precisely the point I raised on another site: Here's the problem with that vexing "Shipoopi": the menfolk of the era and geographic isolation had no logical pathway to the revelations in the new lyric. They have been adjusted via a slick new time machine, corrected by a cosmic overview that recognizes gender bias and the ugliness and immorality in shaming women. Rather than observe the buffoonery in the period-specific misogyny -- which Willson shrewdly knew the leading character, Marian, counters with her own unapologetic agency -- we are now asked to accept male clarity that's still hard to inspire in post-millennial America (see Incel movement, see, oh, where do we start? Hobby Lobby?). Was there a solution to the lyric? Maybe not. But shoehorning epiphanies into a show that takes place 110 years ago feels both artistically suspect and sociologically fraudulent. At least we have Marian, the wisest woman on stage, to show us that women don't need to be categorized or humiliated. But Willson knew that in 1957. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: reed23 07:10 pm EST 02/13/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Delvino 09:11 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Yours is a superior paragraph, analysis and explanation of this issue. I hope I can figure out who you are on "the other site!" |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: lanky 09:15 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Delvino 09:11 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Well said. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 08:54 am EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - lanky 08:23 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Gosh, the anti-PC, anti-woke brigade sure got an early start this morning! If we're aiming at 1912 fidelity, how far do you insist it should "accurately reflect the period"? Is even having non-white actors a step too far? |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:43 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - MockingbirdGirl 08:54 am EST 02/12/22 | |
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| If we're aiming at 1912 fidelity, how far do you insist it should "accurately reflect the period"? Is even having non-white actors a step too far? Since you're using the word "actors," I'll bite: Did you mean that in 1912, black actors would not have been cast as part of a "regular" ensemble in a musical? Or did you mean that in 2022 we still cannot accept that idea that BIPOC actors can play anything but BIPOC roles? |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 01:16 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - Chromolume 12:43 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| I am trying to ascertain if those who insist the show must "accurately reflect a period, its people and the ways they behaved and talked" believe the diversity of the cast to be objectionable by that standard. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:50 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - MockingbirdGirl 01:16 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| Yes. The question I asked still applies. | |
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| re: Query about Shipoopi | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 01:23 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:23 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Query about Shipoopi - MockingbirdGirl 01:16 pm EST 02/12/22 | |
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| They didn't change the text of "Der Rosenkavalier" when they had black Sophies like Kathleen Battle or Barbara Hendricks and despite taking place in 1740s Vienna, it doesn't and shouldn't matter. Cast "Music Man" with whoever can do the roles, but don't tinker with a book and songs that Meredith Willson went through something like 35 drafts of to make it Broadway worthy, as well as writing plenty of songs along the way that he discarded to make the show "just right" for the River City he envisioned and was honoring, and not making a cartoon of or ridiculing, which some of the reviews seem to think this production has done. | |
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