Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:33 pm EDT 03/14/22 | |
| In reply to: "Music from The Life" album - mikem 09:53 am EDT 03/14/22 | |
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| Billy Porter has made substantial rewrites including major changes to the order of songs, rewriting lyrics, and taking out all of the comedy. | |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:22 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - KingSpeed 05:33 pm EDT 03/14/22 | |
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| Major rewrites could only improve the show. | |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:50 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - Singapore/Fling 01:22 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| Eh, not quite. The show could be improved by major rewrites... that doesn't mean any and all major rewrites will make it better. They could be just as bad as what's there, or worse. | |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:09 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - Chazwaza 02:50 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| I genuinely don’t know how you could make “The Life” worse. | |
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| for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:39 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:22 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - Singapore/Fling 04:09 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| I'm sure there are lots of ways it could have been worse. You talk about it like it's famously the worst musical ever written... but that was very much not the way audiences or awards responded to it at the time. So let's also introduce some reality here... you may think the show is terrible. When it opened not very long ago in 1997, the show ran on broadway for 487 performances (over a year!), longer than many better musicals and many worse musicals. It was nominated for *11* Tony Awards including Best Musical, Best Score, Best Book, Best Direction, Best Choreography, Best Orchestrations, Best Scenic Design, Best Lighting Design, Best Costume Design... and of course 3 nominations for the cast, winning 2. Yes it lost all the others to Titanic and the Chicago smash revival, but the noms don't mean nothing, clearly it wasn't shut out as the lamentable trash you think it is ... and if not for Titanic, The Life stood stood a very good chance of taking some of those other 9 awards. I mean... The Life WON BEST MUSICAL at the Drama Critics Awards... as well as Best Music (beating Violet and Steel Pier for both... they didn't even nominate Titanic for either award). (for context, The Drama Desk in the 90s also gave best musical to City of Angels, Secret Garden, Kiss of the Spider Woman, Passion and even gave it to Show Boat over Sunset Blvd when they could have just given to Sunset), Rent, Ragtime over Lion King, and Parade... so good taste was definitely something Drama Desk had that decade. I have no idea why they shut Titanic out almost entirely, I love Titanic... but still, it's not like they didn't prove their taste level. (though I have to question how they gave Best Music to Goodbye Girl over Spider Woman, and to Will Rogers Follies over Secret Garden and Assassins, but I think many people would have voted that way that year). It also won Best Musical from the Outer Critics Circle Awards (beating Titanic, Steel Pier, and J&H) and The Drama League. Let's also not forget that a musical about 1980s Times Sq hookers and pimps is unlikely to win Best Musical. So it's very likely too that it would have gone to Steel Pier if not for Titanic, but that's another show that didn't work and no one does, and frankly I think the score to The Life is much better than Steel Pier. If I had been a Tony voter in 97, I'd have voted for The Life for Best Score over Steel Pier (or Juan Darien, or J&H which might have been nominated if Titanic hadn't been) -- I mean Titanic would likely have gotten my vote but the point is The Life wasn't bottom of my ranking, and I bet that's true for many others. And the revised 2017 London production (starring Sharon D Clarke) won Best Musical at the Off West End Theater Awards... i'm not familiar with that award nor do I know what the competition was, but it still won! It produced two albums ... the "Music from The Life" album that sparked this thread, and the beloved original cast album. And in 1997... it's not like there was no other option for the Tonys to nominate... Jekyll & Hyde was eligible and got a nom for Best Book... but not Best Musical or Best Score or Director. (also eligible for Best Musical noms but didn't get, Play On and Dream... jukebox musicals, but eligible for Best Musical, and of course by 1997 the Tonys had already give Best Musical to TWO jukeboxes, Ain't Misbehavin and Crazy For You. So no reason either of these musicals couldn't have gotten noms if everyone thought The Life was just terrible) It's not perfect, outside of 80% of the score it may not even be good, but give me The Life over any of the Frank Wildhorn musicals ANY DAY. (and many others too) |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 04:34 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - Chazwaza 06:22 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| And I will take the score of ''Jekyll & Hyde'' and most any Frank Wildhorn musical over ''The Life'' any day! ;) | |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:30 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - WaymanWong 04:34 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| I wish you the best! I can't imagine what that feeling is like, but I'm glad to have mine. Enjoy ;) |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 09:29 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:26 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - Chazwaza 06:22 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| For anyone interested, the 2018 Off West End Theater Awards nominated 3 productions for Best Musical Production: The Life, Hair, and Working. (As I said, The Life won) Interestingly, also nominated for awards that year were productions of Bubbly Black Girl, Death Takes a Holiday, Yank!, Tick Tick Boom, Promises Promises, The Woman in White, Top Hat, Salad Days, and new musicals I've never heard of My Land's Shore and Superhero. None of them were nominated for Best Musical Production. The Life won and was also nominated for Best New Musical. So this award has two Best Musical categories... Best Musical Production and Best New Musical. The Life was nominated in both categories. As was Death Takes a Holiday... The Life and Maury Yeston can't stop competing against each other! Both lost New Musical to "Superhero" which is a one man musical (from the bit i saw googling it, it's a bit hard to believe it beat the shows it beat, but I haven't seen it). *** Also to add onto what I said about how the Tonys didn't have to nominate The Life by default because, besides J&H, there were 2 notable jukebox musicals it could have given a Best Musical nom to, if not both, and how the Tonys had already given Best Musical to revue/jukebox musicals Ain't Misbehavin and Crazy For You... it had also given it to Jerome Robbins Broadway (in a very weak year, weaker than 97 by a mile, but still), and nominated several other jukebox musicals for Best Musical: Side by Side by Sondheim, Bubbling Brown Sugar, Dancin, Leader of the Pack, Big Deal, Black and Blue, Jelly's Last Jam, Smokey Joe's Cafe, and Swingin On a Star... and i probably missed one or two. |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 12:37 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - Chazwaza 09:26 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| Crazy For You isn’t a jukebox musical, it was a refusal of Girl Crazy. Even though it was much different story wise, it was using music written for the theatre. To me, a jukebox musical is when pop songs not written for the theater are shoehorned into a plot. My opinion. | |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:37 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:22 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - KingSpeed 12:37 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| I think your opinion is basically wrong. You have decided it's defined as "shoe-horning", it is not automatically that. You have decided it's pop songs and ones not written for the theater... but if they are written for the theater just not for the show they're being put in, that's different and fine. And if they are pop songs from an era when different kinds of songs were popular, that's fine. So now we've had no one commenting on the relatively long run, the notable number of Tony noms, the beating out of other shows for those noms, and the wins from other awards... but we've explained why Jelly's Last Jam isn't a normal "jukebox", and how Crazy For You is better than or not the same as other "jukebox musicals" ... ok, those won. They are both top tier examples of musicals without original scores written for their shows that competed against and won against other original musicals. Jelly's being even more notable an exception because of the new lyrics etc. Nonetheless... the 9 other examples of nominated "jukebox" musicals from before 1997, and the 2 in question that could have been nominated in 1997, remain. Do you think the creators of Play On or Dream intended for their shows not to be taken seriously as "Best Musical" material the way the 9 other (of the 11) less brilliant "jukebox" musicals who got nominated for Best Musical were? Do you think they just "shoe horned pop songs" into a random plot? Do you also not think Crazy For You is just re-using of very basic and familiar plots/scenes with songs taken mostly from shows written at a time when musicals weren't so complicated or book-dependent, but done well? Whatever you think, the fact remains The Life was chosen over those 2 1997 musicals in question (among at least one other major musical that year with an original score and a lot of fans). You guys can pick all you want on these little things. The point is that The Life wasn't nominated for Musical, let alone Score or Book or Direction, because there was nothing else to nominate, original musical or musical *with songs not written for the show they're now in* so they had to nominate this show they all thought was a flaming pile of trash. Flaws and all, it was nominated largely because people thought it was worthwhile, and presumably amounted to more good than bad. It won things because people thought it was good, and presumably better than other things. My point was that 2 other musicals eligible for the big award and other nominations that they didn't get but The Life did, like Play On and Dream, weren't automatically dismissed as candidates for Best Musical because they were what I've called "jukebox" (meaning a musical with a score made up of songs not written for the show they're now in)... they obviously seemed to think The Life was a better musical or made up of more good than bad than was Play On or Dream or Jekyll & Hyde... since they've been fine nominating similar shows in the past. |
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| By the way, the Oxford Dictionary has this definition of "jukebox musical" | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:07 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - Chazwaza 02:22 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more juke·box mu·si·cal noun noun: jukebox musical; plural noun: jukebox musicals a musical that features hit songs of a popular music group or genre. "a jukebox musical featuring the best rock songs of the 1980s" |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 07:03 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:02 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - Chazwaza 02:22 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| First of all, I meant "revisal," not refusal. Auto-correct. And I stand by my definition of jukebox musical. I said nothing about Jelly's Last Jam or The Life in my post so I don't know why you brought them into it. I never said anything anything about a show being "different and fine." I didn't even judge jukebox musicals as being a bad thing. And I never said Crazy For You was better than anything. I never even mentioned "Play On" or "Dream" (which is a revue, not a jukebox musical, by the way)._ After going off the rails, you even started attacking "you guys" and you were no longer responding to my post. Read my post. Then read yours. Have you lost your mind??? | |
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| re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:32 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - KingSpeed 07:02 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| Your post is part of a thread. Read the thread. My mind is quite found, thanks. |
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| I don't really mean "Have you lost your mind???" | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 07:28 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:25 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - KingSpeed 07:02 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| I was just trying to convey that your anger at me was misplaced. You clearly have a lot of passion for The Life and want to defend it with all you have. Personally, I enjoyed The Life. I saw it twice. I love "My Body." Fun number. Oh and I don't consider "shoehorning" a bad thing either. The fun of Mamma Mia's book is about how they shoehorn the songs into the story. | |
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| Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show | |
| Posted by: standingO 01:59 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: I don't really mean "Have you lost your mind???" - KingSpeed 07:25 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| I keep thinking of the line in "My Body": "I know what I'm doing, I know who I am If you got a problem, I don't give a damn" To your point, THE LIFE lead Tony nominations in 1997. 12! It seemed like the favorite in May, although no show was a lock. (STEEL PIER had 11 noms; the real Tony favorite was the revival of CHICAGO). My memory is Rosie's love for TITANIC helped bolster support for that show and helped it win. (I enjoyed TITANIC, but it's pre-Broadway buzz (from Riedel maybe?) was so bad that there was a sense it may be a disaster). Also, THE LIFE's Tony number is one of the few times when the performance mattered for sales. I remember talking to an usher after the Tonys and they said sales picked up after the "My Body" number aired. I wouldn't be surprised if THE LIFE's year-long run was sustained by interest due to that performance. Ah, 1997 Broadway. When Riedel and Rosie mattered nearly as much as Brantley and jukebox-based/movie-based musicals weren't as ubiquitous. Does anyone still wear a hat? |
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| re: Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:53 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show - standingO 01:59 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| The spring of 1997 was such an odd time. There was all this anticipation for a slew of new musicals that would be opening. I mean, come on...a new Maury Yeston musical (TITANIC), a new Kander and Ebb musical (STEEL PIER) and a new Cy Coleman musical (THE LIFE) not only opening in the same season, but all opening that spring. People were vibrating with excitement. The well-received revivals of CHICAGO and 1776 had opened and both were transferring into commercial runs. It was shaping up to be a spectacular end of the season. And then...well...all these shows actually opened. And none of them got the rave reviews. All the reviews were kind of ho hum and shoulder shrugging. TITANIC became a hit of sorts because Rosie O'Donnell liked it and promoted it pretty heavily on her show. In fact, it featured in the animated opening credits. And it later won Best Musical. I felt bad for Manhattan Theatre Club that spring because they'd opened a pretty good little musical down at the old Variety Arts Theatre called THE GREEN HEART (based on a film called A NEW LEAF), with a score by Rusty Magee and a starring turn from Magee's wife, Alison Fraser. THE GREEN HEART couldn't attract press or audiences for love or money because of all the anticipation for the shows opening on Broadway. And, to be honest, that show didn't get strong reviews either (but no better or worse than the shows uptown got), but the creative team kept working on the show and it became a very special little jewel over the course of its run. But no one saw it and no cast album was made. And it disappeared just like THE LIFE and STEEL PIER would. But, at least, those got cast albums. |
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| re: Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:18 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show - JereNYC 03:53 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| I saw THE GREEN HEART twice. Ruth Williamson had a showstopper in it. Remember that? Something like “The Easy Life.” | |
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| re: Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:40 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Chazwaza - I love your passion for this show - JereNYC 03:53 pm EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| That's a shame, I've never heard of The Green Heart! Obviously because of what you said and the lack of cast album. I feel endless sympathy for the creators and cast of any musical that doesn't get a cast album ... it's nearly impossible to have a life after the premiere production without one. And even if a show is rarely produced and flops, if the score has quality or potential, the album gives the writers a calling card to help lead to other notable projects. How sad. | |
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| Jelly's Last Jam | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:09 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: for the record, The Life had a lot of fans and major awards recognition ... - Chazwaza 09:26 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| Jelly's really isn't a jukebox musical in the vein of the others you mention. The music was by Jelly Roll Morton, but all of the lyrics were written for the show, and George Wolfe used Jelly's life as the basis for a deeply thoughtful and theatrically thrilling examination of Black Genius, Arrogance, and Self-Hatred. It's one of the great musicals of the 90s, and one that is sorely due a revival. | |
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| re: Jelly's Last Jam | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 12:37 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:31 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: Jelly's Last Jam - Singapore/Fling 10:09 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| That's fair! I think not all the shows I mentioned fit into the same accurate subcategories that exist under "jukebox" or "revue", I am just lumping together shows that do not have original scores of music and lyrics written for the show. If JLJ were 1 of like 3 musicals of that category that were nominated or won, I'd feel your point more. But I listened 11 shows... Jelly's is certainly an outlier and in a category of its own in terms of how it used previous music and the intention and quality. But it's more the 10 other shows I'd put in the same category as Play On and Dream that I'm using as reasoning behind there being PLENTY of precedent for them being given a Best Musical nom if the Tonys committee thought The Life was so terrible. So let's take Jelly's out of my post. |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 05:01 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - Singapore/Fling 04:09 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| There were rumors that Liza Minnelli would replace Sam Harris on Broadway when Harris left the show. That would have been...worse. Of course, it came to nothing and Harris was replaced by, I think, Brian Lane Green, who'd also replaced Harris in the national tour of the mid-90's JOSEPH revival. |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 12:32 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - JereNYC 05:01 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| Liza would’ve been awesome in that role. Sad it didn’t happen. | |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: shocktheatre 12:58 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - KingSpeed 12:32 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
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| agreed; she should have done it | |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:09 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - JereNYC 05:01 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| That.... wow. You have proven me wrong :-) |
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| re: "Music from The Life" album | |
| Posted by: babs1950 08:10 pm EDT 03/14/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - KingSpeed 05:33 pm EDT 03/14/22 | |
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| Yup, that's what Encores is all about. | |
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| Right??? | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 01:36 am EDT 03/15/22 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:35 am EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Music from The Life" album - babs1950 08:10 pm EDT 03/14/22 | |
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| What the heck is going on? To be fair to Porter, he proposed his ideas to the estate and they said yes. So he's doing what he thinks is best for the piece even though this is not the mission of Encores. | |
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| re: Right??? | |
| Posted by: schlepper 12:33 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: Right??? - KingSpeed 01:35 am EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| It's obvious why the Estate(s) would say yes -- I'm sure THE LIFE isn't bringing in a lot of stock and amateur licensing money -- so something is better than nothing. But it remains a mystery why they are calling this an Encores production? If Billy wants to tell a different story, with different music, he should gather a team and create one from scratch. To all of those who kept calling for Jack Viertel to turn over the reins -- be careful of what you wish for! | |
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| re: Right??? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:59 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Right??? - schlepper 12:33 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| The fundamental question that you ask here is one that I find myself often asking at Encores! and at full scale revivals of shows from other eras. If you, as a creative person, don't like this piece, don't revive it. Go write your own show and make it what you want it to be and say what you want to say in exactly the way you want to say it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that some particular title is of its own era and hasn't aged well. So be it. Use it as an inspiration for your own work and move forward. I exempt from this sentiment "revisals" done by the original creative team, such as the 1966 ANNIE GET YOUR GUN revival, the 1986 SWEET CHARITY revival, and, as much as I didn't care for all the changes made, the 2002 INTO THE WOODS revival. If you, as the creator, want to make changes to your own work, have at it. |
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| re: Right??? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:21 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Right??? - JereNYC 12:59 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| Sometimes the original creatives are the worst people to reconsider their material. James Lapine is particularly egregious at making changes that dilute the power of the original production/material. Give me Daniel Fish any day over James Lapine. As for "The Life", reading that they're putting some stank on the music is the first time that I've been interested in seeing this production (I saw the original on Broadway... and it was not good), but alas, not enough to drop $50 on TodayTix. |
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| re: Right??? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:53 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Right??? - Singapore/Fling 01:21 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| Well, I certainly agree about Lapine, at least as far as his changes to INTO THE WOODS in 2002 go, but my point was that this was Lapine (and Sondheim) making changes to THEIR OWN WORK, not someone else's. That is their prerogative, just as, if Da Vinci had decided to revisit the Mona Lisa and put her in a red cocktail dress, that would've been his prerogative. That is entirely different to what's happening with THE LIFE and what we see with revivals in general, where the original creative team is dead and other people are rewriting them. As we'll see with the upcoming THE SKIN OF OUR TEETH at Lincoln Center, even plays are not immune. Someone will be rewriting Thornton Wilder...and we'll see how it goes. |
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| re: Right??? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 12:30 am EDT 03/16/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Right??? - JereNYC 03:53 pm EDT 03/15/22 | |
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| I think I disagree with that. Once someone creates art, it then belongs to all of us. I don’t think it is the prerogative of an artist to change his prior work. | |
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