Threaded Order Chronological Order
| This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 08:39 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I wouldn’t have thought it possible in this time, where many are feeling kindly towards theater getting back on its feet, for a show to have worse word of mouth and more ill will out of the gate than The Tap Dance Kid… but this 3-hour production of “The Life”, one which proudly, from the director’s mouth, stripped all the humor from the show, and rewrote the orchestrations so that Cy Coleman no longer sounds like Cy Coleman, seems to have done the trick. It’s not merely anecdotal either- aside from the people who tried to warn me away after the invited dress (“spare yourself the time and the agony”), aside from the hordes leaving at intermission of the 3-hour show (with a 90-minute first act), aside from the mostly scathing reviews on the other board.. and it really is as bad as all that- it also has one of the lowest ratings I’ve seen on the audience-based Show-Score website… lower than any show on Broadway, and lower than any other currently running show I could find except for “Perfect Crime”. (Multiple reviews use the words “excruciating” and “indulgent”, and one of the more charitable ones calls it “Porterized”.). This whole new mission was probably clearly a mistake, but maybe it could’ve been implemented better with surer hands, other initial choices of shows and directors, or a different artistic director… but even if they had possibly more intriguing options such as, say, Lila Neugebauer reinventing “Chess”, Liesl Tommy doing “Jelly’s Last Jam”, or Sergio Trujillo finally showing NYC what “The Mambo Kings” would’ve been like – who thought it was a good idea to make such a drastic change coming out of the pandemic, when after years of not spending discretionary income on theater, people are being choosier than ever about what they see? As far as I know they didn’t commit to this lineup until last spring, so they should’ve reversed course and done a variation of their usual - if not “Thoroughly Modern Millie” and “Love Life” with (so-called) non-traditional casting, then maybe a slightly different take on a Gershwin, a Cole Porter, and maybe a Jerry Herman or Kander & Ebb. Those would’ve been easier sells, they would’ve sat better with the long-time subscribers, and they wouldn’t have turned off the new younger audiences as well as the old. As it now stands, after this disaster and the shambles this season has been - and regardless of how professional and/or traditional “Into the Woods” might be, well-cast as it is - unless City Center does a huge mea culpa and basically says “We made a mistake” (“Our hearts were in the right place but we did too much too soon at the wrong time, and implemented it poorly”)… who in the WORLD is going to resubscribe for another season of this, at subscription prices that average between $300-$400? Hardly a soul. |
|
| reply to this message |
| in contrast, here's the ecstatic NYT piece from 1997, "Why Whisper About It? 'The Life' Is a Joy" | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 11:20 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I think this is very worth reading for a sense of why people who love it love it (despite its flaws, or even with consideration for the flaws), and for a bit of perspective from in the year it played it opened and ran for over a year. If you can look past his use of the word "whore" instead of even hooker... this is, I think, what defenders of the ample pros (vs cons) the show provides would have as the record and defender of it, and what Billy Porter, it sounds like, was hell bent on revising the show in opposition to. (also have to note, i believe he misquoted a lyrics... 'So what if you're a whore?/ Everybody's there. Nobody cares/What you're famous for!'' Isn't it "everyone stares. Nobody cares"? It is. But this article certainly pin points a key reason why the cast album is one of the most played albums in my car, and when I'm doing chores, and when I'm at the gym. From Oct 5 1997 SUNDAY VIEW; Why Whisper About It? 'The Life' Is a Joy by Vincent Canby BROADWAY'S BEST-KEPT secret isn't that ''The Life,'' the Cy Coleman show at the Ethel Barrymore Theater, is the best musical of 1996-97. It was given that not always significant distinction by the Drama Desk, the Outer Critics Circle and the Drama League. Awards don't really tell you much when the competition is feeble or simply nonexistent, as was the case the year that ''Sunset Boulevard'' won its Tony. Such prizes are for use in advertising and promotion and to impress the folks back home. The seemingly dark secret about ''The Life'' is that it's by far the most entertaining new musical to have opened last season. Joy is the show's operative word, which may seem odd since the ebullient folk tale, directed by Michael Blakemore, is about the whores and their pimps who worked 42d Street before the street's soul was saved by miraculous Disneyfication. The time is unspecified, though it would seem to be the late 1970's. It's before AIDS had been identified, when the members of an aggressively visible demimonde crowded sidewalks, made deals in doorways and snoozed in bars, when buying a newspaper at 10 P.M. could be as chancy as a trek up Everest, and when the marquees of all-night movie theaters and porn parlors rendered street lights redundant. ''Joy?'' you might well ask. ''Joy?'' Well, yes. Among other things, ''The Life'' displays more fresh, fully realized talent and go-for-broke pizazz than can be found anywhere else on Broadway except at the Shubert, where the revival of ''Chicago'' is in residence. Its roots are in the pre-''Rent,'' pre-''Bring In da Noise/Bring In da Funk'' era. ''The Life'' doesn't deal in documentary truth. This isn't a stage equivalent to ''La Vida,'' one of Oscar Lewis's seminal sociological studies of the culture of poverty. It's musical theater, whose romantic, extremely simplified (you might say Disneyfied) view of life is transformed each night into something joyful through the conjunction of singular talents and one-of-a-kind performances. This is what Broadway can do, if only on rare occasions, and what separates live theater from its various prerecorded offspring. Yet the joy of ''The Life'' appears to have been effectively overlooked when it opened last April during the rush of musicals to qualify for the Tony Awards. It received mostly mixed reviews; even the good ones failed to communicate its sense of pure, old-fashioned show-biz brio and elan, qualities in short supply these days when the choice tends to be the big musical statement or the truisms of pallid operetta. But then April was a hysterical month. Also pushing and shoving for Tony attention were such other arrivals as ''Steel Pier,'' ''Titanic,'' ''Jekyll and Hyde'' and Harold Prince's revival of ''Candide.'' ''Steel Pier'' and ''Candide'' have since succumbed. Of the three survivors, ''Titanic,'' which was given the Tony for best new musical, is the most stately and solemn. Though musically impressive in fits and starts, the show and the ship are so inert that you might suspect a speeding iceberg had smashed into them instead of the other way around. ''Jekyll and Hyde'' is an inside joke: a sendup of the kind of fustian musical theater that even Andrew Lloyd Webber seems to have abandoned, though the joke isn't intentional. When I finally got around to seeing ''The Life'' several weeks ago, it was with a certain reluctance. In addition to the mixed reviews, the word of mouth was either dismissive or defensive. Said one friend whose judgment I trust, ''It's so . . . so . . . retrograde.'' Another friend looked around as if afraid of being overheard. She spoke softly, italicizing the first pronoun. ''Well, I liked it,'' she said, then added, ''and I really don't think it's offensive to women.'' Both friends are right. ''The Life'' is retrograde, gloriously so: for all of the whores' raw language and nasty habits, they have hearts of purest gold, while their pimps are either sadistic monsters or made unreliable by the grip of drug addiction. Yet the show leaves you with the high that comes with the discovery of something new, which in this case is something quite traditional. Mr. Coleman has composed not only his most driving, big-beat score since ''Sweet Charity'' but also his most varied and melodic work since ''On the Twentieth Century.'' The book, written by David Newman, Ira Gasman (who also did the lyrics) and Mr. Coleman, is serviceable. That's not a putdown but to acknowledge that it is always in the service of the composer and the performers, who realize the characters that are defined and made particular by the score. And what splendid performers these are! Three enchanting, gifted singing-actresses dominate the production: Pamela Isaacs, Lillias White and Bellamy Young. Remember their names. A slim, fragile but intense young woman, Ms. Isaacs plays Queen, an emigre from Savannah, who, when first seen, has just spent the night in jail. It's not her first time. Queen has been on the street awhile. Yet as she sings of her resolve to get out of the life, pick up her man (who is also her pimp) and return home, the show suddenly comes to startling life. Ms. Isaacs's voice has the suppleness of Lena Horne's and a purity that is never sabotaged by its range. It's an instrument to cause goose bumps of pleasure. She rivets attention from her first appearance until the ambitious finale. As sung by Ms. Isaacs, Queen has backbone that only a good score can express with such immediacy. Queen is important. So, too, is her best friend, Sonja, played by the dynamic Ms. White, who won the Tony for best featured actress in a musical. On paper, Sonja would be easily recognized as a character you have met before in many disguises: she is the wisecracking sidekick. But when Ms. White tears into her big number, telling us that she is ''getting too old for the oldest profession,'' the sardonic, almost gospel lament defines Sonja as one of a kind. Fine theater performances are spooky in the way they can slice through cliches to find original truth. MS. YOUNG SNEAKS UP on you. She is Mary, just off a Greyhound bus, cheap suitcase in hand, a very blond innocent who has come to make her fortune in Big Town. The pimps immediately spot her and drool over the possibilities she represents. Yet there is something wrong with the picture. At first you think her heavy makeup, covering what seems to be a natural peaches-and-cream complexion, is simply a theatrical convention. After all, she's the ingenue. Very quickly, though, it turns out that Mary knows exactly where she is and what she's doing, first as a go-go dancer and then as a whore headed to Hollywood where she dreams of becoming a star in porn movies. She's not overburdened with mind, but what mind she has is ruthlessly, hilariously focused. Ms. Young, who is making her Broadway debut in ''The Life,'' defines Mary with a sweet, beautifully trained singing voice that has a big, no-nonsense brassy edge to it. The way she handles two of Mr. Coleman's funniest Broadway show tunes, ''Easy Money'' and ''People Magazine,'' recalls a kind of musical theater that's supposed to have died before she was born. There is a prodigious amount of talent in this show. Note also the Tony winner Chuck Cooper (best featured actor in a musical), who plays Memphis, the most vicious of the pimps, with a bass voice that seems to rule the world; Kevin Ramsey as Fleetwood, Queen's feckless lover and pimp, and Rich Hebert as Lou, the white john who takes Mary to Hollywood. It's Lou who, with Mary, sings the two-part ''People Magazine'' in which he tells the rapt hooker, ''You can be famous, just by being famous,'' adding with cheeky assurance: ''So what if you're a whore?/ Everybody's there. Nobody cares/What you're famous for!'' One of the most mysterious aspects of musical theater is how the score, the book, the choreography (in this case by Joey McKneely), the sets (Robin Wagner), costumes (Martin Pakledinaz) and the rest of the contributions come together, not only coherently but also without revealing the wear and tear. It must be as difficult as creating a crossword puzzle in the sand. Which is why success, when achieved, is always an astonishment. ***** Also, later in this piece when he writes about the 1776 revival that year, he says: "That review was as defensive as my friend had been when she admitted having liked ''The Life.'' Certain shows do that to you. You feel you have to justify being entertained by something that, for one academic reason or another, shouldn't measure up." |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: mikem 06:11 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| "This could well be the death of Encores." I think the Encores many of us love is already dead. It was killed off but they didn't tell anyone. The new artistic director has made it clear that her mission is markedly different from the long-standing Encores mission. I think the new mission will drive away a lot of subscribers, and I don't think it will pick up enough new ones to make Encores financially viable. The fact that the new Encores is also artistically unsuccessful is a problem as well. They have two major duds out of the gate. Even if Into the Woods is as great as we hope, I think the subscription renewal rate will have a noticeable drop. So the question is whether the Encores board wants to return to the old mission (presumably with a different artistic director) or keep going down a path that isn't artistically rewarding or financially sustainable. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 06:22 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 06:18 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - mikem 06:11 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| How long is the contract for the new artistic director? Can she be fired and/or paid off for malpractice or "different artistic vision", etc. if it is more for one season? People seem to be staying away in droves, with lots of empty seats and canceled subscriptions. Bring back the vision and the production for what was going to be "Love Life" and others preceding it, and not this reinventing the wheels of someone's misguided dream. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 06:54 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 06:53 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - PlayWiz 06:18 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I don’t have those answers but I do know that feels like what the endgame would have to be (at the very least, were she to survive this it would be one of the more stunning turnarounds in theatre administration history; I can think of several well-known names who’ve held artistic directorships at major regionals only to be let go after a season or two for merely choosing shows that didn’t get the butts in the seats, but with none of the rocking of the boat than has happened here. Picking a few things the audiences didn’t like is unfortunate, but it doesn’t show as much, for lack of a better word, contempt as does changing the entire raison d’etre of the company in the first place). Somehow she went from planning to direct Thoroughly Modern Millie - where I believe the extent of the textual changes as announced was going to be bringing on a Chinese-American playwright primarily to address the highly problematic main villainess and make that character more less racially insensitive - to mounting a season that thus far has consisted of one show whose book was fully rewritten and set in a different time period, but which at least presented most of the score as originally heard and intended…. and now another show that’s basically a top-to-bottom rewrite not just of the tone, the intent, and the dialogue, but also of the score itself, by doing away with all the original orchestrations and arrangements and trying to make the classic Cy Coleman sound come across as more authentically ‘street’ or something. (The aspect that’s been touched the least, ironically, is the lyrics, never the high point of this particular show in the first place, and a moot point now because the loud instrumentation and poor sound design here don’t give those lyrics a fair hearing anyway). Talk about ‘give an inch, take a mile’… and in so doing, not only increasingly throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but in less than a month, squandering all the benefit of the doubt and nearly all of the good will that an incoming artistic director needs to have. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| The New York Times review: | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 04:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 04:30 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| (by Elisabeth Vincentelli) Largely negative, always respectful, highly depressing. "Billy Porter — who adapted Coleman, Gasman and David Newman’s book, and directed this production — puts Trump and Reagan masks on the ensemble members and has them sing and dance their denunciation of an ideology. The number is of a stylistic and aesthetic piece with Porter’s take on the show, which emphasizes systemic oppression to the detriment of individual characterizations. Whether it’s of a piece with “The Life,” well, that is something else." "The original show let us progressively discover the characters’ distinct personalities through actions, words and songs; now they are archetypal pawns in an op-ed. One can agree with a message and still find its form lacking." "For better or for worse — mostly for worse here — Regietheater, the German practice of radically reinterpreting a play, musical or opera, has come to Encores. Whether that approach belongs in this series — which debuted in 1994 to offer brief runs of underappreciated musicals in concert style and has traditionally been about reconstruction rather than deconstruction — is an open question. Rethinks can be welcome, even necessary in musical theater — Daniel Fish’s production of “Oklahoma!,” now touring the country, is one especially successful example. ....The traditionally archival-minded Encores has broadened its mission statement to include that the artists are “reclaiming work for our time through their own personal lens.” It’s clear that the series is moving into a new phase, but for many of us longtime fans, it’s also a little sad to lose such a unique showcase." |
|
| Link | "Billy Porter brings a heavy-handed touch as the director and adapter of this 1997 musical about prostitutes and pimps in Manhattan’s bad old days." |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: The New York Times review: | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 05:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: The New York Times review: - ShowGoer 04:30 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Ugh. I've worked with/know EV and, while I have often disagreed with her on matters of taste, I have never had cause to question her judgment about the mechanics of theater (ie, whether something "works"). I am already strapped into this roller-coaster but it is going to be the challenge of a lifetime to keep an open mind about the show at this point. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The point of Encores ... | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 02:49 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| ... was to do forgotten, or long unrevived musicals, so that we could see what they were. The books were usually trimmed a bit. With tao dance and kid and The Life they have taken mediocre musicals that no one had really wanted to see, and rewriutten the books so that they suit the new leaders political and social whims. There is no point to this other than to beat ones breast and bray about how 'woke' you are. The audience who wants to buy tickets wants to see shows from the past, more or less warts and all, not fixed up by, sorry, hacks. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| correction: *MANY* people have been wanting to see The Life at Encores... but that's not the same as Billy Porter's The Life | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:39 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The point of Encores ... - NewtonUK 02:49 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I think, as do many of its fans, it is one of the more notable and sensationally entertaining scores written for a not very good (or perhaps even downright bad) musical, and deserves to shine in a semi-staged concert wherein the point is to celebrate a good score (written by a legendary broadway composer) in a show that is rarely produced Some Encores shows the musical is rarely produced for good reason, some it's rarely produced and deserves to be widely produced... the reason the show is "lost" isn't so much the point as just that it is, and it has a score worth dusting off and giving the royal treatment to for 6 performances with a full orchestra and top tier cast. I agree with the rest of what you said, but to equate The Life with Tap Dance Kid as shows "no one" really wanted to see... is not accurate. I have never ever been recommended to listen to the cast album of Tap Dance Kid, let alone found it myself. I have talked to MANY fans of The Life's score over the years, and I think many find it a fascinating failure more than one to be outrightly dismissed and never thought of again. Billy isn't the only one who wishes the show around the score were better. Encores should have produced a semi-staged concert of The Life, with the score as it was written. Or the revised version (revised by the authors I believe, right?) that was done in London. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The point of Encores ... | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 04:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The point of Encores ... - NewtonUK 02:49 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Your so on the mark. Things will change when the box office starts bleeding. Time terminate those running this disaster. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re:Death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 01:57 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| That's the direction it's headed. I passed on this season and have no regrets. The goose has been undercooked. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 01:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| NOTE: Sorry if you already saw this--it was unintentionally deleted and I was told to repost. I haven't seen it but my tickets are already bought, so, c'est la vie. I think what a lot of people are missing is that Encores has been forced into new parameters not only by the new creative team but by City Center's own mission, which came in the wake of the We See You manifesto. I am NOT going to comment on whether the mission change (or the manifesto) were "right" or "wrong" (nope, let someone else open that can of worms)--but they HAPPENED nonetheless. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to square the original Encores mission with the Commitment to Anti-Racism statement prominently displayed on the City Center site, or the agreement the three major Broadway chains have made in terms of representation on creative teams, etc. Not sure why Sondheim seems to be the one person whose shows are grandfathered in, but that's another story. I absolutely agree that they should have retired the Encores name for this. But if anyone thinks that City Centers can just do "original flavor" Encores after making a bunch of promises, they are mistaken. The PR fallout would be a nightmare. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:55 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:43 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I don't think they were forced. This is the new leadership's interpretation of the mission and of their responsibility. There is nothing inherently racist about producing a semi-staged concert of the score of The Life as it was written and with a very trimmed down book to connect the dots. It is not at all impossible to square the original Encores mission with the Commitment to Anti-Racism. This was not the only way. Not all things written before 2019, or all things written by white people, are racist or a reflection of racism. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| The commitment to anti-racism doesn’t necessarily mean tossing out everything that’s not Sondheim. Broadway is attempting to answer a very specific labor imbalance, in which creative teams are overwhelmingly White (and male). For example, in the 18/19 season, out of 153 possible design contracts, only 13 went to BIPOC designers. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 04:41 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 04:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| You seem to have gotten the impression that I'm anti- anti-racism which couldn't be further from the truth. Measures need to be taken. But it does, in fact, leave something like Encores in a bit of a bind considering that these trends have been ongoing for a hundred years and there just isn't a large volume of historical work to revive that doesn't have that labor balance built in. Hence, completely reworking things that did not feature the contributions of nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males when they were being created. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 05:25 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 04:41 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I said nothing of the kind. I simply pointed out that your statement that this treatment of past work was REQUIRED by anti-racism work is an extreme view when the commitment on behalf of Broadway producers is about diverse creative teams, which is much larger than just the writers of an old show. It’s a simple idea: hire more BIPOC creatives. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 05:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 05:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| And again, I ask how you propose to do that on shows where the creative team made the thing thirty or more years ago, unless you bring in people to completely supplant their work? I can't be the only person wondering this, since Encores just DID this. Twice. In one season. You can't just hire a director or set designer on an old work and think that their creative contribution is somehow going to overwrite the actual text of a show. Hell, they tried to do this with the Fish "Oklahoma!" and many, many people felt his staging of it clashed with the words being said and the songs being sung. In that case, I BELIEVE he was intentionally setting out to disquiet, and he succeeded if that was his intent. But City Center isn't trying to jar its audience; it's trying to make new narratives out of old scraps. And so far the reviews don't suggest they've succeeded. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:18 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 05:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Re: Fish's Oklahoma... many people thought his direction clashed with the text... and MANY did not, including a lot of ticket buyers, critics, and awards committees, like the Tony Awards. (i'm not weighing in either way, that's irrelevant... though if i were asked I'd say I loved some of it and also really didn't not love some of it) I don't think it's worth comparing that with Billy Porter's The Life. I think it's also fair to say that given Porter's very limited experience as a writer or director (outside of his off-bway musical he wrote about his life as a performer, and directing Sam Harris's one man show) .... he may have taken on WAY WAY too much with doing The Life at Encores with such short rehearsal time as a director let alone directing a musical that doesn't work, let alone a musical that doesn't work that's been heavily and haphazardly and massively rewritten ... let alone being rewritten BY the inexperienced director trying to mount and stage it. It's a lot for anyone just re-writing or just directing it, let alone with limited experience in either job, and very little time (including no time to see if the changes work really). That doesn't make him bad or bad for trying necessarily, but it is also presumably, nay, observably, an element at play that is clearly working against him being able to pull this off. And I would say it does make Lear "bad" for letting him/hiring him to do alllll of that with/to The Life for the Encores series. She should respect the mission but also respect the show, but also respect Billy and the performers, designers, and respect the AUDIENCE more and not put them all in the position of this playing out this way in this limited time. Encores is not a series for audience guinea pigs for new visions of old shows people wish were different shows than they are. But IF they were going to do this, it should have been in the Off-Center format, and it should have been properly workshop beforehand. (but I still say we, and musical, have the right to see the score celebrated and performed the way Encores has always done, without it being an experiment in condemning, apologizing and reinventing/repurposing the show) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:25 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Chazwaza 06:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I will be surprised if Lear survives this season. Her only hope is if ITW is a smash hit for them, and even that might not be enough. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 06:25 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I can't wait to see what she decides was wrong with Into the Woods ... | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: PlazaBoy 06:37 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Chazwaza 06:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Ha! You got a true lol out of me on that one. : ) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:42 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 05:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Lear and her team are staking out an extreme view that these old shows aren’t fit for public consumption. That is a separate issue from the industry’s commitment to hire more BIPOC artists. How do we do the latter? Well, “Funny Girl” has two BIPOC choreographers. It would be nice if more creatives on that show were BIPOC, but it’s a start. Not everything has to be a bold explosion of a classic in order to be better serving anti-racism principles; BIPOC folk like the Golden Age musicals, too. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 05:01 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:48 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 04:41 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| It's exhausting this idea that unless all voices of all "types" of peoples are involved then work is automatically tainted and rotten at its core, and the only solution is to throw it into a vault of theater history or to have someone(s) who are specifically nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males reinvent and repurpose and massively rewrite it. This is not the only way forward or only way to address the imbalance in Broadway creative and producing teams that has been so prevalent in the past and also the present. Musicals written and produced by white people don't need to be vilified, or even in most cases dismantled, to fix the balance. Acknowledging the intense imbalance, and lamenting the very lamentable fact of the whiteness and largely maleness of the people behind the majority of all of Broadway musical history (and I assume we are considering Jews to be "white", even though of course they aren't the same kind of "white" ethnically or culturally and were absolutely in a different position in society when the Broadway musical was born and raised, it's not as if Broadway musicals were the specific art form of white British Christians)... that doesn't mean that all the work done by those creators and producers is bad and wrong and toxic and violent etc, and any art created in a work where racism infected (and still infects) all aspects of our society is to be seen as racist. Some of it may be problematic, some of it may be racially ignorant or insensitive in its existence or some of the writing, and hey, even some may be racist and those shows don't need to be saved or need to be fixed if they're otherwise worth saving. But these blanket statements and applications of headlines to everything written before now or by white people or male people being bad ... isn't good. And the fact that for so long white people have been the vast majority writing and directing on broadway doesn't mean that what they wrote is automatically bad or racist, it means it was produced within a system that favored (knowing or unknowingly, respective to these creators of the past), whiteness (be it in the artist or the subject or the audience), and what is really bad is that we don't have more musicals written by people of all races, and directed and produced by people of all races. That is where the energy should be going to fixing. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 07:56 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:53 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also - Chazwaza 04:48 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| In re-reading my own post, I want to be clear when i said: "lamenting the very lamentable fact of the whiteness and largely maleness of the people behind the majority of all of Broadway musical history" i do not mean to lament their race or gender, but just that it was the vast majority. It's the majority aspect I find lamentable. Any given writer(s) being white or being male or being both is not inherently lamentable nor should it be seen that way... I mean the way "white and male" so vastly outnumbers "not white" and/or "not male" ... I don't want to be seen as reinforcing the idea i'm arguing against! Breaking down our identity as points or ammo is not good. It is, instead, lamentable that there were so few creators and producers who were female or people of non-white races. And I also want to clarify when I say "it's not as if Broadway musicals were the specific art form of white British Christians" I mean that Broadway musicals did start mainly out with Jewish immigrants and children of Jewish immigrants in New York. That's not good or bad it's just true. It doesn't mean non-Jewish people haven't contributed massively to the form and that it hasn't changed and grown and expanded etc. But I think when we discuss "white people" and "whiteness" in the context only of society today, we leave out how differently Jews and "white" immigrants were treated than WASPS and that kind of white people. (I think now people would think of Mother and Father's family in Ragtime, but they'd include Tateh and the Jewish immigrants in that as well when they say "white" as a blanket term, and it's just not accurate to the time.) We are also leaving out class structure and class discrimination etc, which is very real too. I find this to be the narrow understanding more of younger people today than all people but i hate to generalize ;) Anyway. ... |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 07:28 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 07:25 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also - Chazwaza 04:48 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I read this thoughtful post twice before returning to comment and suspect that you’ve clearly articulated a point of view many share - including artists of color - but are trepidatious about voicing. A female African - American playwright friend frames this strained effort at retroactive revision as misapplied white guilt tinged with virtue signaling: watching savvy theater professionals become apologists for the white privilege-determined canon. She argues that we learn far more through productions that hold a prism up to the era of the text creation. This is obviously not about inclusive casting or interpretive creatives but about honoring the originals’ integrity; as a result audiences witness both theater and cultural history, what prior generations got wrong, but without issuing externally - and subjectively - applied corrections. No rigid rules for these new interpretations will solve the conundrum in creating theatrical revival that satisfies everyone (the last Porgy and Bess comes to mind; remember that heated debate?) but collaborative artists may find that only new work ideally serves a singular artistic vision representing the moment. Yet we need revivals as much as we need to re-experience texts that would not be written today. Hopefully, we’ll find a balance. Your post is a keeper, Chazwaza. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 05:06 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also - Chazwaza 04:48 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Encores! would not be the place for it, but I would very much be interested if someone wanted to bankroll Billy Porter spearheading a new theatre piece, inspired by THE LIFE, about prostitutes and pimps in the Times Square of the late 70's/early 80's. Have him assemble a team and create something entirely new that, ultimately, may or may not bear much resemblance to THE LIFE. Have him acknowledge THE LIFE and its creators in a program note while talking about how he was inspired by them to tell this story in a different way that speaks more and better to him. I came up in a theatre tradition that said that the director and actors were there to serve the writer(s)' vision and serve the play. And I've always felt that, if you don't like the play, do another play that you do like. Or write you own play and say exactly what you want to say in it. This whole idea of "We're going to rewrite the play and make it say what WE want it to say" just strikes me as wrong. If red happens to be your favorite color, would you repaint the Mona Lisa's dress to be red...or might you instead look for another piece of art that already features red? Or paint your own painting and use as much red as you so desire? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 05:20 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:13 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO - JereNYC 05:06 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| What you described in your first paragraphs sounds very much like what people who've seen it say he did at Encores this week. I'm not sure why he has to acknowledge THE LIFE at all, or use any part of it. He should absolutely make a new show of some kind that endeavors to tell stories and portray people who were sex workers and in that community in Times Sq in the early 80s. He can even do it as a response to having been asked about doing The Life (a show he has a history with as an actor, he says it was the first show he auditioned for, and was part of the development readings... so surely he's had opinions about it for decades now). It is also a show with some very big roles for lots of poc performers, and won two of them Tonys, and has a score that is quite sensational at least in places... so I can see why any black broadway performer would be aware of this show and have opinions and dreams about what it was or should have been or could possibly be if revised... But also he doesn't need The Life to do a show about this subject. The Life is not some famous musical that is seen as, previous to this reworking, THE historical document or THE piece of theater that gives us that place and time. It is not looked to (or looked at, cause no one produces it) or deferred to in any way in theater world or larger entertainment world... So why even bring it up? If you like the score but hate the show, do a concert of the score... or just do a new show that hopefully CAN be a produceable and authentic expression of that time and those people. And I'm sure several theaters would have given him some space and money to spearhead that, especially given the height of his fame (and therefor his power as a household name artist and someone with a big platform on tv and social media) is from starring in and winning awards in a show that takes place in nyc in the early 80s, and with many sex workers, especially queer poc sex workers. He's having and has been having a big moment, he should seize that to do an original show he'd like to see out there. I'd love to see him do that. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 05:00 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" is valid also - Chazwaza 04:48 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I don't recall ever saying any of that. It's pretty amazing that my comments are, on the one hand, being considered evidence that I am anti black and anti gay by Singapore while at the same time they're being considered anti white and anti straight by you. What does that tell us about how much people seem to project their own willingness to be pissed off onto strangers on the Internet? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 05:05 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:04 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO - Phaedrusnyc 05:00 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I didn't call you anti-white or anti-straight. And I'm sorry if it came off as that. I'm just going off your sentence " Hence, completely reworking things that did not feature the contributions of nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males when they were being created." I'm sorry if I misread the intention there as agreeing with Encores that shows that fit into that description (aka maybe 85%+ of broadway musicals) need to be reworked if they're to be produced (even in concert format). |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 05:08 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO - Chazwaza 05:04 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I'm speaking to how Encores is specifically dealing with the conundrum, which, this season has been to A. resurrect one unbeloved show about a Black family and have creators of color rework it to the point where they didn't even provide bios of the original creative team in the Playbill and B. Resurrect another show with no creators of color involved and ask a creator of color to redo THAT. I have been pretty careful to neither condemn nor endorse the action that they took. But it's obvious that that is their current tact. Whether you think it's correct or not is your opinion and you have a right to it . But simply acknowledging facts that are prima facie evident is not an expression of an opinion. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: work by any combo of "nonwhite, nonstraight, non cisgender males" IS VALID ALSO - Phaedrusnyc 05:08 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I'm with you there. Though I am a bit, at this point, more willing to sprinkle in some condemnation, if not at the intention or spirit of the intention... then at the execution, or what the execution retroactively tells us about the limits of or holes in their plan/intention/mission, and the misguided nature of this being the new mission of Encores specifically. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:18 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Could Encores! commitment to anti-racism happen strictly with hiring creatives and cast? I mean, what if they did some forgotten Cole Porter or Rodgers and Hart musical with a fully integrated cast and non-white representation on the creative team? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: 37Rubydog 03:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - JereNYC 02:18 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| It strikes me that they've already achieved the casting aspect. I recall seeing the re-revival of "Call Me Madam" and my misguided friend how Nikki James could be Mark Evan's sister. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: Phaedrusnyc 03:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 02:59 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - JereNYC 02:18 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Possibly? Probably? But could you do just "THAT" without it being considered tokenism? Hard to say. The relevant part seems to be, "By working alongside and compensating BIPOC artists, curators, advisors, and consultants to participate in the decision-making process, we will broaden the thinking behind our public-facing activity by engaging professionals who bring a wide range of perspectives and experiences to the discussion." To me, it's the "perspectives and experiences" part that matters, not the "Compensating." The whole explanation behind Billy Porter being called in on this show and the new mandate of "productions where artists reclaim work for our time through their own personal lens" requires that BIPOC artists be allowed to "engage" with the material (which, for all intents and purposes, requires altering it). |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 02:11 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 02:07 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:33 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Well, then they need to decide which is more of a nightmare: a) the PR fallout from breaking supposed promises about anti-racism, or b) the PR fallout from audiences mostly hating the shows and not buying tickets, the latter of which will almost certainly result in c) the demise of Encores, which is where this thread started. I think you make good points, and am sure all you say is true to a degree – but that said, everyone seems to be under the impression that there was also a commitment, as well as pressure being brought to bear, regarding having more success with ticket sales... and much as you say in your own post, I'd argue it's even more impossible to square the mission of getting more butts in the seats with alienating your core constituency of theater lovers and not luring in many new ones by doing shows few have heard of, which didn't have large followings to begin with, in revisions that bare scant resemblance to the original versions and are by all accounts nearly unanimously worse. I also don't see why they can't have it both ways; perhaps, do 2 out of 3 shows the way they were written originally, and maybe do 1 show with a less drastic but still somewhat new angle (Encores "Off Center" already tried something like this with a rewritten version of Lippa's Wild Party – not one of their finer efforts, but sandwiched inbetween the worthy "Runaways" and the rapturously received revival of "Little Shop of Horrors" – the latter a true event precisely because, in addition to Jake Gyllenhaal, it recreated an original star performance from a quarter-century earlier, from Ellen Green.). If next season represents largely a return to form and format, perhaps they can retain some of their subscribers and the series can yet be saved; but if in the name of representation next season is announced as consisting of, say, a downbeat production of "Raisin" that removes any comedy, a version of "Bring in 'da Noise" that de-emphasizes the tap dancing, and a production of "Man of La Mancha" featuring public school children, I think it's safe to say that no one need bother showing up to work since there'll be hardly any people showing up to watch. The competing impulses must be dizzying, but they're clearly going to have to make some tough decisions, because whatever they were hoping to achieve, this clearly isn't working for them, and was never the way to go about it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 02:53 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 02:07 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Agree with all your points; just trying to add some context. It goes back to my original question, though, of "why 'The Life'?" Why pick someone no one was hotly anticipating just to do a tear down on it? Why revive it at all if you think it's THAT problematic? Here's my GUESS: they decided to do "The Life" for the usual Encores reasons; they thought, "Billy Porter is a name, we should ask him!"; Billy Porter said, "Yeah, I'll do it, but ONLY if I can change it." Then they had the choice between saying, "Yes, that would be great!" or "No, absolutely not." And the second choice would then have left them with a very outspoken person who was just told "No" and would likely share that news with his public. If anything this may be a learning experience about making sure the person you're asking to work on something is someone who actually likes the thing he's being asked to work on. I think what the braintrust on this board has concluded (and I agree), is that threading this needle with something that has a long history and well-known name like Encores is going to be a major task, if not an unsolvable one. You want ticket sales for moribund properties AND you want to pretend that the people most likely to buy those tickets are not the ones who care about the unsung musicals of musical history and are going to be unhappy with the changes. Seems insane from a marketing perspective and it seems like, in hindsight, they should have made "Hey, Look Me Over" the swan song for "Encores" and announced a new theater series and called it whatever they wanted to. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:34 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 02:53 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| That’s a terrible guess and does not mirror how Porter has talked about the process. How’s this for a guess: Encores decided to produce this for some reason other than they were afraid of a loud Black gay man? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 04:57 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 04:34 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Porter has repeatedly said that he would only have accepted the job if he were allowed to change the show. That's from his own statements. i didn't even imply "Encores decided to produce this because they were afraid of a loud Black gay man." My first sentence says that Encores likely decided to the show before he was even approached. Not sure why you're trying to turn this into "guy on the Internet is a racist homophobe," but enjoy yourself. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 04:57 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Please read your words again and let me know how they don’t imply Encores! did this out of fear of Porter: they decided to do "The Life" for the usual Encores reasons; they thought, "Billy Porter is a name, we should ask him!"; Billy Porter said, "Yeah, I'll do it, but ONLY if I can change it." Then they had the choice between saying, "Yes, that would be great!" or "No, absolutely not." And the second choice would then have left them with a very outspoken person who was just told "No" and would likely share that news with his public. See? You put Encores! in the imaginary position of having to do the show out of some kind of publicity blackmail from Porter. His status as gay and Black, and how this correlates to the stereotypes of “loud Black people”, are all wrapped up in his identity. Perhaps you might choose your words more carefully in the future. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 05:39 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 05:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Your own quote starts with "They decided to do "The Life" for the usual Encores reasons" so I am not apologizing for the fact that you're inventing strawmen, sorry. You could have substituted any of a number of names for Billy Porter who are neither gay nor black but are outspoken (never said "loud" either, but the villain you've created in your head did, I guess) and it would have meant the same exact thing. If you don't think it would be incredibly bad publicity to make an offer to someone and then retract it when they say they want to contribute creatively, then I don't know what to tell you. You just decided that since Billy Porter is gay and Black that clearly my issue is that I am afraid of or disturbed by gay, Black men. Good for you. You demolished an argument by making it about something that was not said. And that is completely untrue. As I said to the other person in this thread it's very interesting that the two of you are both angry about two entirely contradictory things you've each decided I am. Which to me says that I'm on the right track as far as presenting a neutral argument, here. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:24 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 05:39 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| As the other person, again, I haven't decided you are anything. (and my post that you're referring to, which, again, was a response to the words you said, was more a response to producers or people who think the thing you said they think ... it wasn't an attack on you for neutrally presenting what they think or have said about producing theater or at this theater or this show. Consider that I'm telling "them" that the work of white and/or male people is also valid, not you specifically). I was about to agree with you here, but what's the point. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:50 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 05:39 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Dude, you are spinning yourself into a torment of your own making. As for your quote, you’re saying that you think Encores committed to this vision because of their fear of being burned by - call him outspoken, call him loud - Billy Porter. The rest of your waddabouts are just window dressing to your fantasy that they folded the moment Porter came back to them with the goal of radically changing the show. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:48 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:42 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 05:50 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| While I don't personally think at all that this is how it played out, if for no other reason than because Lear has made it CLEAR that Billy's designs for the show and his demand of rewriting it are very much in line with what she sees for producing at Encores... But I also do not think it's out of the line or out of the realm of reality that IF they had wanted Billy to direct The Life (assuming it would be clear they meant the show written in 1997, or even the version revised by the authors after that -- since that is the normal way of it at Encores) and he said yes but only if he can massively change it *because* he thinks it's the big magic P word, problematic, that they would feel worried that to then take their offer back (because they weren't intending to or prepared to be producing a huge reimagining of the show, which is quite a reasonable issue) would risk Billy saying publicly on his enormous platform that Encores wants to do show with many black sex worker characters, and offered for him to direct it, but when he said he'd need to make it un-problematic and his new better vision, that they rescinded their offer ... yes, that would look very bad to the woke social media warriors and probably even non-warriors. That doesn't mean Billy wouldn't be in his rights to say that, or that Encores wouldn't be in their rights to take back their offer (since he didn't want the job they were actually offering) and to hire a director interested in doing the score as written ... and it doesn't mean that "wokeness" is bad. But all those things combined, in that situation... could certainly scare a producer who wishes they'd never offered it to someone with that platform who now is unhappy with their revival happening and sees it as problematic. I don't think acknowledging this potential reality is the same as a racist bemoaning a black gay person using their voice (as a black person or as a gay person or both). Also, in the age of social media, if you have a lot of eyes on you and what you say there, anything you said is said, for all intents and purposes, "loudly"... it's like whispering into a megaphone. It doesn't matter if you "whispered" or yelled... it will echo far and wide and have a lot of eyes on it... eyes who often (not always or exclusively but often) love headlines. Lots of things, good and bad things, get taken out of context or misunderstood this way as well. It's the reality of social media, and media in general, regardless of racism issues or wokeness etc. That being said, you're certainly within your rights to address how the poster's post read to you, and why. And I am not the poster nor do I know them, so I can't speak to their real intentions, but the post didn't read quite the same way to me. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:43 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Chazwaza 06:42 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I think that's fair. I also think that the other poster was unaware of the words they were using and how they played into certain stereotypes, and I take them at their word that they meant no harm. It is though, as you say, a rather far fetched scenario, but I guess no crazier than a lot of what gets tossed around on this board. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 05:52 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 05:50 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| No, I'm responding to someone who decided I "implied" something that is nowhere in the text and is going to continue arguing it. So, I'm going to take the advice my mother once gave me. "If someone is clearly looking for a fight, don't give them the satisfaction of getting one." No more comment from me--you enjoy your day. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Agreed. | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 03:43 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 03:38 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 02:53 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| All well said, though again, given the ticket sales for even a few of the better-known titles in the now-paused off-Broadway Encores summer series, I don't know that the audiences are there for the kind of new renamed series you suggest... at least not for weeklong runs at the 2750-seat City Center. I just don't think there are 25,000 theater fans of any stripe in any given week who'll be eager to see revisions of problematic or dated musicals being essentially workshopped at Broadway ticket prices. Not to mention that the short rehearsal period would make these kinds of revisions tough to pull off even if the material enters in great shape on day one... and as we've seen last month and this week, if there are any issues with the new concepts or dramaturgy that aren't solved by the time they get to an audience, then having only one run-through before opening to critics and crowds makes it impossible to course-correct. So this mission, at this venue, regardless of what the series is called, seems impractical at best and, as you say, likely unsolvable. (By the way, Billy Porter has always wanted to be a director, going back to his all-black Sondheim revue of 15 years ago or so, initially called "Black Sondheim", then in various incarnations, "Mixed Company", and finally "Being Alive". MY suspicion is that he loved the score and, after not having been cast in it, always remembered it – but always felt that there was a way to square a darker take on the subject matter with Coleman's generally sunny tunes. That conceit sounded risky and uncertain from the get-go to me, and there may be people out there who yet get more out of this than I and many others apparently have... but my guess is that germ of an idea has been simmering under the surface with him for years now, even if it only became reality when City Center approached him. AND rather than feeling like they were obligated to go along with him for political reasons, the people at Encores were probably excited about it; why wouldn't they have been, if they were also receptive and eager for Lydia Diamond and Kenny Leon to move The Tap Dance Kid from the 1980s to the 1950s, lose most of the comedy, and completely make a mess of the most memorable character from the original production of that one?) But either way, you're certainly right that they're definitely having a very public and painful learning experience, even if I would say it's less about specific personalities, and more about best intentions & ambitions bumping up against the cold hard reality of mounting a significantly new major production in New York City with this budget and in this timeframe. It was never bound to serve anyone well, least of all the musical scores that are ostensibly the reason for conceiving the whole series 30 years ago in the first place. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Agreed. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 04:08 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: Agreed. - ShowGoer 03:38 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| It's funny, because it puts me in mind of a similar difficulty the world of comic books and "genre" movie franchises faces on these issues. (And I acknowledge the overlap in the Venn diagram between comics geeks and theater geeks is probably rather small so feel free to ignore my bloviating here.) But in both cases you're talking about a medium facing the reality of an audience that is increasingly niche, increasingly aging, and like it or not, in a historically narrow demographic. And, in both cases, they are attempting to broaden the audience by appealing to diverse people and experiences (which is worthy) and playing with the format of the medium (which is also worthy), but in both cases they are also dealing with a core audience that often rejects even the most minor changes being made in service of that goal. In comic books, the constant catch-22 is that it is believed that no one will buy a comic with a "new" character in the title, so they use the old titles and swap in new, more representative characters in the lead role. And then the core audience (specifically the core audience that is highly resistant to change) freaks out, very few new customers are captured, and they end up replacing the replacement characters with the original characters--the same characters that were narrowly representative of the country to begin with. The cycle always goes, "Why are you making this character who was always a white guy something other than a white guy; just create a new character!" then "nobody wants to buy that book because it's a new character," and on and on. And the prices keep going up because the consumer base is shrinking. Musical theater, in its lesser reliance on established intellectual property, has navigated this better on the main stage--regardless of how you feel about them, shows like "Hamilton," "Evan Hansen," "Six," etc., are bringing in younger people (though not necessarily super-diverse younger people, given the cost of a ticket). But it's still a reality that revivals and shows based on known IP are a good bet. No one wants to give up revivals as a source of revenue, but they also want to broaden the audience at the same time they are actively alienating part of the core audience. Encores is nothing BUT revivals, and specifically, very short-term and (until recently) obscure revivals. My usual argument is "We don't need to do another 'Carousel' if 'Carousel' is going to upset so many people." Or ANYTHING we consider, at best, old-fashioned and, at worst, actively offensive. But producers can't seem to navigate a world where shows are ever retired, and certainly the estates who are still trying to make money decades after the actual creators died (thanks, Sonny Bono) aren't going to hear of that, either. I wish I were smart enough to solve the issue for either of these media but I'm just stuck on message boards commenting on how difficult it seems to be to expand audiences while A. not losing an equal number of audiences and B. not making a total artistic mess of things. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Agreed. | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 03:01 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:59 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Agreed. - Phaedrusnyc 04:08 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| But consider, about revivals, that there is a LOUD minority who don't want anything old fashioned or that they see as offensive, or even more strictly, written or for a time before wokeness... they are not the majority of ticket buyers. Lots of ticket buyers still want to see those shows, lots of ticket buyers love beautifully restored and staged classic gems, and reinvented new visions (that don't massively rewrite and overhaul the text/score). Also, Encores hasn't only been obscure shows for awhile. I mean even when they did Chicago... Encores began in 1994, and Chicago was done in 1996. The musical itself had only closed on Broadway 19 years prior, after a run of over 2 years. So it's not as if it were some obscure show no one had ever heard of. It definitely fit the bill of an under-appreciated gem that many audiences of the day would never have had a chance to see, with a score very worthy of an "Encores treatment". I mean, their first production was Fiorello... which VERY much fit the bill of being tragically unknown to most modern audiences, rarely performed etc... and at least it was from the 50s (36 years old in 1994)... but it also had won the Pulitzer and Tony for Best Musical. So even then some might have said they were pushing the concept of under-appreciated by picking a show which at the time was 1 of 6 musicals to ever win a Pulitzer. There's next production, Allegro, was even more THE perfect choice for Encores. And that "perfect for Encores" streak continued until their 9th production with Chicago. But they did Wonderful Town in 2000, Hair in 2001, The Pajama Game in 2002, Bye Bye Birdie in 2004, Follies in 2007, the revised Merrily in 2012 (the fact that they didn't do the original, to me, flies completely in the face of the reason to do it at Encores, but hey)... So that aspect of their mission, or how it's interpreted, has been malleable since the beginning. And let's not forget, they have to make money too. But what has always been true is that they do not reinvent and rewrite the shows -- they do basically the original score, with original orchestrations if possible, and a paired down version of the book. Only in rare cases like Merrily where the show has been rewritten by the living author prior to Encores selection did they do actual rewrites. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 12:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| It was a bad show anyway. Why did Cy Coleman like shows with prostitutes so much? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Cy Coleman wrote many shows, about many kinds of people/professions -- but he is in great company if he's an artist fascinated by prostitutes | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - AnObserver 12:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Many many writers and filmmakers and artists of all kinds have been interested in Sex Work as a subject and the people who do it and pay for it, etc. Cy Coleman wrote music for the following major musicals: Wildcat Little Me Sweet Charity Seesaw I Love My Wife On the Twentieth Century Barnum City of Angels The Life The Will Rogers Follies (and two that aren't major that aren't worth mentioning) While sex and entertainment were certainly elements in many of his shows, I think it's pretty unfair to say he "likes shows with prostitutes so much" when he wrote *10* major musicals and only 2 of them have prostitutes, if we're calling the working gals in Sweet Charity prostitutes, which I do think is fair. And City of Angels too has a storyline that leads to a character becoming a prostitute, but I don't think many would refer to or even remember that show as a "prostitute show" (I've seen it and heard the score a dozen times and I didn't even remember it was in there)... but he also didn't write the book to that, and it changed quite a lot in development with the writers who ultimately wrote it. Also... he wrote the just the music for Sweet Charity... Neil Simon wrote the book and Dorothy Fields the lyrics, shaped by Fosse, based on an acclaimed movie by one of the world's most acclaimed writer/directors. Two of my favorite of his 10 scores are in shows about hookers... and I've definitely been aware of that, and that they have music by him... but I still don't think I'd call him someone who likes shows about hookers so much. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| ALSO | |
| Posted by: standingO 07:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: Cy Coleman wrote many shows, about many kinds of people/professions -- but he is in great company if he's an artist fascinated by prostitutes - Chazwaza 04:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| It could be an artist trying to make sense of the world around them. Broadway theaters was surrounded by totally different neighbors in the 1960s-1980s than today. The dancing halls of Sweet Charity in the 1960s and then, the setting on which The Life is based. Or as Sam Harris said in his intro to the show's 1997 Tony performance, it was "before they made the streets squeaky clean for Mickey Mouse." Maybe Cy Coleman did or didn't have other reasons to revisit the topic, but I wouldn't dismiss this factor if we're retroactively dissecting his artistic motivations. In other Life news, Sam Harris is livestreaming Openly Gray from 54 Below as I type. And it's a nice watch. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: ALSO | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 08:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: ALSO - standingO 07:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Absolutely. Sondheim also made sense of the world around him. I could easily say Sondheim loved writing shows about wealthy people. Especially if I only was familiar with Company Follies and A Little Night Music (forgetting of course that all 3 shows have non-wealthy characters too)... I mean, throw in there Sunday, and Merrily... both have wealthy privileged artists at the center (as well as non-wealthy people). But Sondheim, like Cy, wrote MANY show, Sondheim wrote 14 musicals (music & lyrics), about many many things and kinds of people. There are certainly repeated type and themes and things he writes well (after all, he was rich and privileged even from childhood... but let's not forget plenty of the world's great art came from people with massive wealth and/or privilege who had the time and resources to BE artists, it wasn't always seen as the detriment and death of art or the value of the art if that was the artist's actual life). But I could still say Sondheim loved musicals about wealthy people. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - AnObserver 12:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I believe this is the only show of his with prostitutes. Charity, Jenny Lind, and Lola were not prostitutes. Perhaps the phrase you're looking for is "sexually liberated women"? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:15 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I think it's fair to say Charity is under the umbrella of sex workers... even if she doesnt' technically provide sex. (Only Fans models/performers are considered sex workers but they don't have sex with their clients either) But either way... |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Is there a Lola in a Cy Coleman-scored show? Lola in "Damn Yankees" by Adler and Ross is the foremost one in musical theatre. The other, upstart Lola in "Kinky Boots" was written by Cyndi Lauper. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 03:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - PlayWiz 02:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| You're right and I knew that. Billy Porter made the same comment in an interview while talking about Coleman and it's been stuck in my brain. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Hate to break it to you, Charity's a prostitute for all intents and purposes... and actually is a prostitute in the source material. "City of Angels" also has a prominent prostitution story line. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 01:35 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 01:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Charity is what she is in the "source material" but she ain't in Sweet Charity, and if you even bring that up to Chita Rivera you will get an earful. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:35 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Yes, precisely. Coleman was part of a team who adapted the story of a prostitute into a musical, which is relevant to the question of why he was drawn to stories about prostitutes. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:10 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:35 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Agreed. I believe it is specifically brought up by Nickie or Helene (I can never keep those characters straight) that, while some of the girls do sex work in addition to the dancing, Charity does not. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - JereNYC 02:10 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| So even within the show, some of the characters are specifically sex workers. They only sanitized Charity’s storyline to be not-quite-a-hooker with a heart of gold. If we broaden the category a bit, we could also look at all of Coleman’s showbiz musicals to be about the way that artists sell themselves in different ways:.. didn’t Coleman also write Minsky’s? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Minsky's: | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 02:39 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 02:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Charles Strouse, not Coleman. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 02:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Absolutely, but those other girls are never identified, the subject is never brought up again, we never see it depicted, and the show really isn't about that aspect. I think this was included to appease more timid 1960's Broadway audiences (some of whom might have known the source film) who might not have been able to get on board with a heroine who was a prostitute. The show very much depends on the audience rooting for Charity throughout. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 03:02 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - JereNYC 02:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Yeah, the whole conversation seems silly to me on a factual level. Taking one show about prostitutes and one with a prostitute and arguing that they are evidence that Cy Coleman had some particular, tawdry obsession with prostitution is more than a little unfair. We're talking about 16% of his body of work that grows when you start adding in, "Well, so and so is for all intents and purposes a prostitute" or "this other show about New York in the 70s acknowledges the existence of prostitution." By that logic, we could ask, "Why is Jerry Herman obsessed with drag queens?" Sure, he only did the one drag queen musical, but at least three of the characters he is most associated with are, "for all intents and purposes," drag queens. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:25 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 03:02 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| But what a fabulous connection to make. Jerry Herman's musicals really are queer cannon because they are drag musicals. and we should be embracing them as such. Bianca Del Rio as Mame. With Jinx Monsoon as Vera. And Symone somewhere. I would buy a ticket to that. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame | |
| Posted by: Jason 04:55 am EDT 03/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame - Singapore/Fling 01:25 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
|
|
|
| Alexandra Billings must play Mame. With Coco Peru as Vera and Audra McDonald as Gooch. Take care, Jason |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:19 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame - Singapore/Fling 01:25 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
|
|
|
| I dunno... having recently seen Bianca/Roy in Everybody's Talking About Jamie... I'm not sure I'd recommend anyone see him act in a real musical again. I will say when in drag he was much more natural and charismatic (in drag playing a drag queen in drag), but out of drag (as a drag queen out of drag), not so good. But also, I think you have it all wrong. Jinx is the Mame (the eccentric rich kook who eats everything at the buffet of life!), no question. Bianca is the Vera (the funny, dry, rude actress)... I mean, come on! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Ooh that's good casting | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 03:24 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:21 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame - Chazwaza 02:19 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
|
|
|
| I should have written Jinx as Googe (right?), but your ideas better. And it's 100% Roy playing Bianca playing Vera. Is there a part for Laganja? I don't really know the show that well. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Ooh that's good casting | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:20 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: Ooh that's good casting - Singapore/Fling 03:21 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
|
|
|
| maybe an Upton? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Ooh that's good casting | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:05 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Ooh that's good casting - Chazwaza 04:20 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
|
|
|
| With Vanjie as Mr Upton | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: sf 01:15 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Bobbi in City Of Angels becomes a prostitute. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 01:34 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - sf 01:15 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Mea culpa! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Seesaw | |
| Posted by: monty4rudy 02:14 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:34 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| "Hookers! Hustlers! Fresh from Eighth Avenue!" Plus, a cameo by the Mayor, who didn't seem to mind being propositioned... |
|
| Link | Getty Images |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: jaymac 12:07 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Yikes, I am going this weekend just because I have never seen The Life and curious. Political speechifying really turns me off. I was at Paradise Square last night, despite wonderful performances, found it formulaic and dull. https://www.theatermania.com/new-york-city-theater/reviews/review-billy-porters-the-life-is-the-new-low-bar_93509.html This review from theatermania is not good at all. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:25 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| The Show Score... ? The show has played literally 1 performance. There are 9 reviews up on Show Score, and it says they are 56% Positive, 11% Mixed and 33% Negative. I'm just as unhappy with the new Encores mission, and just as skeptical about the approach being taken for The Life and a lot of what Porter has said... but let's not twist reality. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 01:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 01:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Chazwaza 11:25 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| "The Show Score... ? The show has played literally 1 performance. There are 9 reviews up on Show Score, and it says they are 56% Positive, 11% Mixed and 33% Negative. " Chazwaza - the Show-Score for Encores' "The Tap Dance Kid" had, and still has, only 48 reviews for its total of 7 performances, so proportionally and mathematically, the reviews (now numbering 11, and currently 55% positive) from the opening night of "The Life" are already a larger sampling size than the earlier show had. To be fair, the Show-Score tally for that show worked out to 80% - but in the case of "The Life", based on the word on the street and in the wake of the first official reviews, I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual average goes down, not up. That may not be the case, and who knows, maybe in the final analysis it will have more thumbs-up than thumbs-down. Either way, please don't excuse me of alternative facts, or promoting some false narrative. The lowest-reviewed Show-Score of all Broadway right now is for "Paradise Square", and that one is currently ranked 20 points higher than The Life, at 75% positive. As I said before, "Perfect Cime" is the only significant show currently ranked lower. I agree with what others have said here, it's a silly website, but if anything their scores do tend toward the high end (as evidenced by every Broadway show on there). Regardless, while things will obviously change, my statistics from it at the current moment are 100% accurate and a fair representation of the reactions so far. I would hardly call that "twisting reality" – in fact, I would actually call it "reality". Thanks. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| It played Tuesday and Wednesday night | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 08:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 01:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Dress rehearsal Tuesday packs them in and boy they were out for blood. A friend of mine said she had to stay because they were all there as a guest group. In other words no one paid. Maybe there were 900 in the three level City Center. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 01:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I didn't accuse you of alternative facts. With all due respect, I did say that taking Show Score has a source is foolhardy, but moreso you absolutely misrepresented The Life's show score, at least at the time I looked at it (which right when I posted that). I don't doubt the score will go down further... that still doesn't mean it's a trusted source of any kind. It's like Yelp for theater, you have no idea the motivations or context of any of the posters opinions/reviews. It has its value, but as a solid source of assessing what audiences truly think, I wouldn't trust it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Jackson 01:04 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Chazwaza 11:25 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Don't go by Show-Score. There are far too many "critics" there who love everything they see. Not a reliable source. J |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:20 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Jackson 01:04 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Or the opposite, people who are extremely close minded with poor taste, especially the ones who will take the free tickets. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Review: Billy Porter's The Life Is the New Low Bar for Encores! | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 11:27 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Chazwaza 11:25 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| " I watched with envy as some of the audience left at intermission." | |
| Link | link |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Porter can go back to his day job now. | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 04:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: Review: Billy Porter's The Life Is the New Low Bar for Encores! - Ncassidine 11:27 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| after his ego was permitted to waste so much time and money and subscribers. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 08:36 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| "This whole new mission was probably clearly a mistake..." I don't understand why they didn't re-brand with a new mission. This clearly sin't Encores! and I haven't read one positive comment about either show so far this season. Is it possible they are going to destroy ITW as well? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: standingO 09:25 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Ncassidine 08:36 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| Sounds like the reviews could be cribbed from the show's lyrics: Wednesday you're new Thursday you're through It happens sooner than you know That gravy train gets mighty slow OR This game of cops and hookers it ain't nothin' new. But nowadays they sure got better things to do They even might have time to solve a crime or two If they would leave us working girls alone Despite my love of THE LIFE, twas covid keeping me away. I still wish the production well but the early buzz makes me think I may never see this version. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Delvino 10:19 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - standingO 09:25 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
|
|
|
| I learned from Twitter that The Life has a considerable following; many people adore the score, and have great memories of the original B'way production. Other than White's performance, nothing much stuck with me -- the subject matter just didn't whet my appetite, a subjective take -- so I'm curious about how all of this revision/reframing sits with the fan base. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.353651 seconds.