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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 12:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: This could well be the death of Encores. - ShowGoer 08:26 am EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| It was a bad show anyway. Why did Cy Coleman like shows with prostitutes so much? | |
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| Cy Coleman wrote many shows, about many kinds of people/professions -- but he is in great company if he's an artist fascinated by prostitutes | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - AnObserver 12:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Many many writers and filmmakers and artists of all kinds have been interested in Sex Work as a subject and the people who do it and pay for it, etc. Cy Coleman wrote music for the following major musicals: Wildcat Little Me Sweet Charity Seesaw I Love My Wife On the Twentieth Century Barnum City of Angels The Life The Will Rogers Follies (and two that aren't major that aren't worth mentioning) While sex and entertainment were certainly elements in many of his shows, I think it's pretty unfair to say he "likes shows with prostitutes so much" when he wrote *10* major musicals and only 2 of them have prostitutes, if we're calling the working gals in Sweet Charity prostitutes, which I do think is fair. And City of Angels too has a storyline that leads to a character becoming a prostitute, but I don't think many would refer to or even remember that show as a "prostitute show" (I've seen it and heard the score a dozen times and I didn't even remember it was in there)... but he also didn't write the book to that, and it changed quite a lot in development with the writers who ultimately wrote it. Also... he wrote the just the music for Sweet Charity... Neil Simon wrote the book and Dorothy Fields the lyrics, shaped by Fosse, based on an acclaimed movie by one of the world's most acclaimed writer/directors. Two of my favorite of his 10 scores are in shows about hookers... and I've definitely been aware of that, and that they have music by him... but I still don't think I'd call him someone who likes shows about hookers so much. |
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| ALSO | |
| Posted by: standingO 07:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: Cy Coleman wrote many shows, about many kinds of people/professions -- but he is in great company if he's an artist fascinated by prostitutes - Chazwaza 04:23 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| It could be an artist trying to make sense of the world around them. Broadway theaters was surrounded by totally different neighbors in the 1960s-1980s than today. The dancing halls of Sweet Charity in the 1960s and then, the setting on which The Life is based. Or as Sam Harris said in his intro to the show's 1997 Tony performance, it was "before they made the streets squeaky clean for Mickey Mouse." Maybe Cy Coleman did or didn't have other reasons to revisit the topic, but I wouldn't dismiss this factor if we're retroactively dissecting his artistic motivations. In other Life news, Sam Harris is livestreaming Openly Gray from 54 Below as I type. And it's a nice watch. |
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| re: ALSO | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 08:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: ALSO - standingO 07:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Absolutely. Sondheim also made sense of the world around him. I could easily say Sondheim loved writing shows about wealthy people. Especially if I only was familiar with Company Follies and A Little Night Music (forgetting of course that all 3 shows have non-wealthy characters too)... I mean, throw in there Sunday, and Merrily... both have wealthy privileged artists at the center (as well as non-wealthy people). But Sondheim, like Cy, wrote MANY show, Sondheim wrote 14 musicals (music & lyrics), about many many things and kinds of people. There are certainly repeated type and themes and things he writes well (after all, he was rich and privileged even from childhood... but let's not forget plenty of the world's great art came from people with massive wealth and/or privilege who had the time and resources to BE artists, it wasn't always seen as the detriment and death of art or the value of the art if that was the artist's actual life). But I could still say Sondheim loved musicals about wealthy people. |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - AnObserver 12:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| I believe this is the only show of his with prostitutes. Charity, Jenny Lind, and Lola were not prostitutes. Perhaps the phrase you're looking for is "sexually liberated women"? | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:15 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| I think it's fair to say Charity is under the umbrella of sex workers... even if she doesnt' technically provide sex. (Only Fans models/performers are considered sex workers but they don't have sex with their clients either) But either way... |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:31 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Is there a Lola in a Cy Coleman-scored show? Lola in "Damn Yankees" by Adler and Ross is the foremost one in musical theatre. The other, upstart Lola in "Kinky Boots" was written by Cyndi Lauper. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 03:03 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - PlayWiz 02:29 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| You're right and I knew that. Billy Porter made the same comment in an interview while talking about Coleman and it's been stuck in my brain. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Hate to break it to you, Charity's a prostitute for all intents and purposes... and actually is a prostitute in the source material. "City of Angels" also has a prominent prostitution story line. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 01:35 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 01:19 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Charity is what she is in the "source material" but she ain't in Sweet Charity, and if you even bring that up to Chita Rivera you will get an earful. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:12 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:35 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Yes, precisely. Coleman was part of a team who adapted the story of a prostitute into a musical, which is relevant to the question of why he was drawn to stories about prostitutes. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:10 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:35 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Agreed. I believe it is specifically brought up by Nickie or Helene (I can never keep those characters straight) that, while some of the girls do sex work in addition to the dancing, Charity does not. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - JereNYC 02:10 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| So even within the show, some of the characters are specifically sex workers. They only sanitized Charity’s storyline to be not-quite-a-hooker with a heart of gold. If we broaden the category a bit, we could also look at all of Coleman’s showbiz musicals to be about the way that artists sell themselves in different ways:.. didn’t Coleman also write Minsky’s? |
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| Minsky's: | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 02:39 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 02:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Charles Strouse, not Coleman. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Singapore/Fling 02:16 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Absolutely, but those other girls are never identified, the subject is never brought up again, we never see it depicted, and the show really isn't about that aspect. I think this was included to appease more timid 1960's Broadway audiences (some of whom might have known the source film) who might not have been able to get on board with a heroine who was a prostitute. The show very much depends on the audience rooting for Charity throughout. |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 03:02 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - JereNYC 02:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Yeah, the whole conversation seems silly to me on a factual level. Taking one show about prostitutes and one with a prostitute and arguing that they are evidence that Cy Coleman had some particular, tawdry obsession with prostitution is more than a little unfair. We're talking about 16% of his body of work that grows when you start adding in, "Well, so and so is for all intents and purposes a prostitute" or "this other show about New York in the 70s acknowledges the existence of prostitution." By that logic, we could ask, "Why is Jerry Herman obsessed with drag queens?" Sure, he only did the one drag queen musical, but at least three of the characters he is most associated with are, "for all intents and purposes," drag queens. |
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| Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:25 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 03:02 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| But what a fabulous connection to make. Jerry Herman's musicals really are queer cannon because they are drag musicals. and we should be embracing them as such. Bianca Del Rio as Mame. With Jinx Monsoon as Vera. And Symone somewhere. I would buy a ticket to that. |
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| re: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame | |
| Posted by: Jason 04:55 am EDT 03/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame - Singapore/Fling 01:25 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Alexandra Billings must play Mame. With Coco Peru as Vera and Audra McDonald as Gooch. Take care, Jason |
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| re: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:19 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame - Singapore/Fling 01:25 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I dunno... having recently seen Bianca/Roy in Everybody's Talking About Jamie... I'm not sure I'd recommend anyone see him act in a real musical again. I will say when in drag he was much more natural and charismatic (in drag playing a drag queen in drag), but out of drag (as a drag queen out of drag), not so good. But also, I think you have it all wrong. Jinx is the Mame (the eccentric rich kook who eats everything at the buffet of life!), no question. Bianca is the Vera (the funny, dry, rude actress)... I mean, come on! |
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| Ooh that's good casting | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 03:24 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:21 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Jerry Herman Wrote Drag Musicals; Bianca del Rio should play Mame - Chazwaza 02:19 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I should have written Jinx as Googe (right?), but your ideas better. And it's 100% Roy playing Bianca playing Vera. Is there a part for Laganja? I don't really know the show that well. |
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| re: Ooh that's good casting | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:20 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: Ooh that's good casting - Singapore/Fling 03:21 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| maybe an Upton? | |
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| re: Ooh that's good casting | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:05 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Ooh that's good casting - Chazwaza 04:20 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| With Vanjie as Mr Upton | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: sf 01:15 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 12:27 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Bobbi in City Of Angels becomes a prostitute. | |
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| re: This could well be the death of Encores. | |
| Posted by: Phaedrusnyc 01:34 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - sf 01:15 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| Mea culpa! | |
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| Seesaw | |
| Posted by: monty4rudy 02:14 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
| In reply to: re: This could well be the death of Encores. - Phaedrusnyc 01:34 pm EDT 03/17/22 | |
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| "Hookers! Hustlers! Fresh from Eighth Avenue!" Plus, a cameo by the Mayor, who didn't seem to mind being propositioned... |
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| Link | Getty Images |
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