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| I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:31 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:24 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I'm just in awe of Robert Preston's superb performance, Onna White's choreography and the excellent way this well-cast film was brought to the screen. Ben Mankiewicz last night before the film said that it was his favorite musical! However, Harold Hill's con, basically, if he pulled it off as intended, still would have delivered musical instruments and uniforms to the people of River City. Maybe unneeded, since apparently there would be no one there to lead the band. And dismissing the fact hat Marion knows how to read music and play the piano, basically it's not like Harold Hill took their money without providing something for their money. River City could always advertise for a band leader position for their high school from Des Moines or one of the bigger cities and make it part of their city budget! Also, you would think with all the lady piano teachers Harold Hill knew, someone would have taught him a bit of solfege or how to read a bit of music or even something like "Chopsticks" along the way. I'm just saying, it's not the biggest scam in the scheme of things. | |
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| I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: StageManager 04:42 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 11:24 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| that he took their money and then skipped town without ever delivering uniforms OR instruments. But in River City he gets to enamored of Mariam that he stays too long |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 05:45 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: I always thought the Con was - StageManager 04:42 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| That would make more sense, but the instruments and uniforms do arrive in River City, so he must have actually sent the money somewhere at some point to purchase them and has been hanging around town ever since waiting for them to arrive. So he made the decision to send the money at a point, at least, several weeks prior to the end of the show, depending on how long it would take for the order and the money to arrive wherever it was sent and for that company to fill the order and send the merchandise to River City. Maybe the scam is that he's overcharging them for these things and pocketing the difference? That's very much not what he says to Marcellus though. |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: Delvino 10:02 am EDT 03/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - JereNYC 05:45 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I always assumed it was another era's version of money laundering, overcharging for uniforms and instruments, leaving without instruction. A snakeoil salesman does sell actual snake oil; when it does work, he's gone. When Hill isn't around to teach lessons, only sell band outfits, the profits are his. | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:24 pm EDT 03/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - Delvino 10:02 am EDT 03/20/22 | |
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| Does Harold Hill ever actually sell that he’s a music instructor? I don’t think so. | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:21 am EDT 03/22/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - KingSpeed 05:24 pm EDT 03/21/22 | |
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| In the verse to 76 Trombones, he claims he's there to "organize" a boy's band. I don't know if he ever says anything further than that. But most people would easily expect that "organize" includes instruction in a case like this. Especially because he never mentions needing any help with the actual rehearsing, etc. | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:24 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - JereNYC 05:45 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I haven't seen MM in a long time (though i love it)... but am i crazy to think the instruments arrive as a sort of miracle or perhaps community-hallucination and/or manifestation, against Hill's original intentions and actual actions? Or does he have a change of heart and use the money he was given by the River City people to send away from the instruments after all? And do they answer this question or leave to us to decide? Or is it clear cut that he did buy them? | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:23 pm EDT 03/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - Chazwaza 08:24 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I believe the instruments arrive during “Wells Fargo Wagon”? | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:14 am EDT 03/22/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - KingSpeed 05:23 pm EDT 03/21/22 | |
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| That makes sense. I really need to re-watch it! | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:08 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - JereNYC 05:45 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I suspect that Hill's margin would have been pretty hefty, at least 25%. A good salesman sells himself, not necessarily his merchandise alone. The scam is that he's a total fraud. He doesn't know one note from another. He claims to be an experienced musician and promises the kids and parents that he is going to organize a boys' band and obviously give them lessons so that they can become a band. Of course, he plans on skipping town (with his profit, which is probably considerable) without giving any lessons and without organizing the band. That's the scam. | |
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| re: I always thought the Con was | |
| Posted by: mikem 08:53 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I always thought the Con was - BroadwayTonyJ 06:08 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| If I am remembering correctly, he says to Marcellus that he is going to deliver the instruments so that the townspeople will get excited and cough up the money for the uniforms. As I said below, I don't know why he buys the uniforms, though. By delivering them, he makes it harder to press charges against him, so maybe that's why. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 11:53 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:52 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 11:24 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| But wouldn't each kid need individual lessons on how to play each specific instrument properly. Wouldn't River City need more than one experienced teacher? Of course, the show is a fable. It's probably best not to analyze every detail that does not really make sense. I agree that Preston's performance is one of the all-time greatest. In addition, the score and libretto are priceless. The current revival is enjoyable, especially for diehard fans of Jackman and Foster who are not more demanding. I just wish they hadn't made so many changes in lyrics and dialogue, and I wish they hadn't cut a song and also some of the text. |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: StanS 04:00 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:54 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - BroadwayTonyJ 11:52 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| So the scam is that Hill didn't tell them that without instruction, they wouldn't be able to play the instruments? Since he didn't tell them that, they were under the impression that instruments will just play themselves. I know these are simple people, but are they supposed to be that stupid? This reminds me of an old joke: A society lady buys a violin. The seller soon receives an irate call from the lady: "You forgot to include the instruction manual!" |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:13 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - StanS 03:54 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| So the scam is that Hill didn't tell them that without instruction, they wouldn't be able to play the instruments? Since he didn't tell them that, they were under the impression that instruments will just play themselves. Are we forgetting that Hill has his own name for this very thing - "the think system?" |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:23 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - BroadwayTonyJ 11:52 am EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Yes, there would be a need for someone to teach instruments (privately or in school), but it's not like Hill took their money and didn't give them the instruments or the band uniforms. He made a sale, but presumably one where the people receiving these things can't use them to any real purpose. He sold them something they didn't need, but he did give them something. Of course, to Marian's way of thinking, he did give them all something they needed -- pride, anticipation, community spirit, a barbershop quartet (!), etc. and that's all part of this wonderful work, too. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: theatreguy40 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 12:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Of course, to Marian's way of thinking, he did give them all something they needed -- pride, anticipation, community spirit, a barbershop quartet (!), etc. and that's all part of this wonderful work, too. Yes!!!! That's part of the beauty of the show -- that Harold DOES all this good for the town without even realizing it!!!! |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: mikem 12:57 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 12:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I agree that if you think about it in detail, the con isn't a typical con in the classic sense. Harold Hill has charged the townspeople for band instruments and band uniforms, which he has provided them. He's put out money for the instruments and uniforms. He would probably make more money taking their money and never providing instruments. The show tries to address this, but the cost of instruments is probably greater than the profit margin on instruments plus uniforms, so his sticking around to get the uniform money doesn't really add up. And he has no reason to stick around and provide actual uniforms. He isn't providing lessons, but he's not charging them for lessons, either. It's true that without lessons, the instruments are useless, though. |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:49 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - mikem 12:57 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| "It's true that without lessons, the instruments are useless, though." Instruments are never useless. If he can't teach them, someone eventually can. |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:26 pm EDT 03/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - StanS 03:49 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Yep. Plus, some are naturally gifted and can teach themselves. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: comedywest 12:50 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 12:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| In "Rock Island" they say he guarantees to teach the kids how to play. I think that is the scam. Without that the instruments are useless. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: JereNYC 12:50 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 12:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I have always wondered what happens in River City the day after the events of the show. Clearly, Harold Hill is in no position to actually lead a band. Depending on how good Marian actually is, she might be able to provide some kind of basic instruction since it's not uncommon for musicians to know more than one instrument. I wonder how long it would be before the bloom came off the rose with the parents loving the cacophony that we see in the finale. And then, of course, there's the little matter of "Harold Hill" not being this guy's actual name. He and Marian can't even get married unless he either legally changes his name or reverts to his original name. So...how do they handle that? And what happens when angry salesmen and the guy's past con victims get word that he's living in River City? There might be a daily parade of people coming for Greg/Harold financially and otherwise. Yep, it's a fable and none of it really needs to make sense, but I've always kind of wished that Willson had thought it through more and come up with an ending that didn't beg so many questions. What if, instead of being able to keep the con going, it falls apart at the first act finale. Then the second act could be the townspeople, in ever greater numbers, and after seeing the positive changes that Harold has brought to their town, conspire with him to keep the whole thing alive and going and protect the guy from creditors and people who want to rearrange his face. They'd learn all about the guy through the course of events and the show's finale could still be a performance by the band, lead by Greg (if that's even his real name either), but in collusion with the entire town to both inspire the kids and scare off those who want retribution. Then, in the last scene, a new couple arrive in town, a husband and wife who are actual music/band instructors that Marian has found and Mayor Shinn has hired with the idea of teaching the kids to play instruments and teaching Greg/Harold to conduct. Yay! Everyone's problems are solved |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: mamaleh 02:25 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - JereNYC 12:50 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I've always wondered what profession could Gregory/Harold take up after he settles down in River City? He's not trained for anything (especially music instruction) and I can't see him working in Dunlops's stables alongside Marcellus. Of course, he could continue to be a traveling salesman, but that would interfere with establishing a stable home with Marian. I'm betting he puts his gift for gab to work on the local newspaper via a regular column. It's as good a guess as any, I suppose. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: jo 05:04 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
| Posted by: jo 05:03 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - mamaleh 02:25 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
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| Maybe even become a politician - he has a gift of getting the pulse of the community, is quite resourceful, and can easily relate to most anyone. Especially if he is as charming as the Jackman variety. Maybe as ViceMayor to Mayor Shinn & implement some community changes? |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:41 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:40 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - mamaleh 02:25 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
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| Shoe salesman, general store salesman or other store in town (or general manager eventually), or more likely teaching classes in deportment, public speaking, presentation, creative writing, etc.; he has all the skills to lecture in as a motivational speaker as well. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: mikem 01:38 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: mikem 01:38 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - JereNYC 12:50 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| (spoilers, I guess) I really love the final moments of The Music Man. The parents' pride is one of those plot twists that feels completely unexpected in the moment but also feels really organic. It doesn't feel like some random thing that came in to save the day. I think it's a great heart-warming conclusion to the show. All the things you mention could still happen after the show is over. Parental pride will tide them over long enough for some actual instruction to happen. The kids don't have to be objectively good at their instruments, just good enough. I don't know how much legal checking would happen in that place and time to prevent Harold and Marian from being married and settling down. Once he's no longer a traveling salesman, the other salesmen won't care what he does. And his con is relatively small amounts of dollars for each individual parent he conned before River City. I don't know if anyone is going to hunt him down for a con of that size that happened a while earlier -- he's been in River City for several months by the end of the show. It's not like he conned people out of their house. |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:15 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - mikem 01:38 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Through a crazy set of circumstances, my dad, who was born in 1920, did not know his own legal name. Nevertheless, he got a social security number, enlisted in the army in 1941, married my mom in 1947, filed taxes every year -- all under an incorrect name. When my mom wanted to travel abroad around 1975, my dad discovered the truth when he tried to get a passport. I don't think Harold and Marian would have had a problem getting married in River City. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:20 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - BroadwayTonyJ 02:15 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| They could also move to a bigger city like Des Moines at some point. Marian sings in that same section of both "My White Knight" in the show and in "Being In Love" in the film that she wants to live in a cottage somewhere in the State of Iowa. | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:01 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - PlayWiz 02:19 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Are cottages forbidden in River City? :-) | |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 01:13 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:05 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - JereNYC 12:50 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I don't know if Harold/Greg ever necessarily bilked other salesmen out of funds or stole from them. It seems like what he did was give salesmen a bad name and made it tougher for them to sell whatever they were selling. So they were kind of run out of one state by the law. They can be mad at him, but it seems that Charlie Cowell represented them (as he says he would at the beginning of the show) when he tried to put the record straight to the folks in River City when he arrived there later on in the show. If the folks of River City liked seeing and hearing their kids playing instruments, someone on the PTA might ask that funds be allocated to hire a band teacher. Music education at certain points in U.S. history was taught to some extent. We hear of music programs being cut, but to be cut, they've had to be there at some point for them to cut later on. Maybe Mayor Shinn's wife and those Pick-a-Little Ladies got on the mayor's case to hire a music teacher for the high school. They liked what they saw, and decided it was the beginning of something good for their town and that it needed to be built upon to make it even better. Harold can teach salesmanship, deportment, presentation, public speaking, etc. and be among the first professional motivational speakers. |
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| re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 01:03 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 12:59 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - JereNYC 12:50 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| But wait. Don’t the kids actually play at the end? And, even though they sound bad, aren’t the parents and townspeople thrilled? Isn’t that the point? That he has made a miracle? I’ve never seen the show, only the movie, and a while ago, but I think the town’s upliftment is the point. As well as the inferred ability for the arts and love to make a difference in the world. (And that you don’t even have to be a virtuoso to be a wow. Or, you don’t have to be a star, baby, to be in my show!) And it’s ultimately all because of Marian. Her love keeps on liftin him higher, higher. I don’t know what possessed me to reference modern songs here. |
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| Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:58 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:52 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: I was re-watching "The Music Man" last night on TCM - question about the con - lordofspeech 12:59 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Is she there so that that while Harold and Marcellus are talking about Harold's preference for faster women like Hester Prynne, having a child in the scene makes it then more G-rated? Are they being more genteel than they might be without her there, so Willson could get in a slightly risque song? Is Amaryllis usually on stage in that scene? Of course, now I'm envisioning a production of "The Music Man" as seen through the eyes of slightly worldly-wise Amaryllis, who understands what's being sung about in "The Sadder But Wiser Girl", and her imagination of what's transpiring between Harold and Marian when she's not on stage. "Goodnight, My Someone" indeed! |
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| re: Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:59 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" - PlayWiz 02:52 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Is Amaryllis usually on stage in that scene? No, she is not. Please don't tell me they put her in there for this revival. Why???????? |
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| re: Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 09:02 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:58 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" - Chromolume 07:59 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| I haven't seen this revival, but actually isn't it kind of inappropriate for the guys in the movie to have Amaryllis as their sole audience (ok, and the horse) for this song about the kind of free-wheeling gal that Harold would like to shtupp? | |
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| re: Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:31 am EDT 03/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Another question re: Amaryllis in the scene with "The Sadder But Wiser Girl" - PlayWiz 08:58 pm EDT 03/18/22 | |
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| Oh, my - I guess it really has been too long since I watched the film - I forgot she's in there. And yeah, it makes absolutely no sense at all. Thank you for reminding me. I'd love to know what was behind that decision. | |
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