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| If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: wmgrad1976 11:57 am EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| Why isn't a woman cast as Milky White? | |
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| Aside from the fact that cross-gender casting is common.... | |
| Posted by: earlybird 08:30 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: If Milky White is a cow - wmgrad1976 11:57 am EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| it's also a frickin' puppet. The point of puppetry is that the puppeteer brings to life a creature outside of themself. Certainly puppeteers are also actors in their own way, but a situation like this isn't equivalent to a man playing a woman. Especially when it's an ANIMAL with no discernibly gendered characteristics - and note my wording: characteristics related to GENDER, not BIOLOGICAL SEX - obviously we know that Milky White's biological sex is female, but she's not anthropomorphized with traditionally "womanly" behaviors (like, say for example, Miss Piggy - who, by the way, is also portrayed by a man). | |
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| Isn't it time for us to transcend these outmoded beliefs about gender and, umm, species? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 02:40 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: If Milky White is a cow - wmgrad1976 11:57 am EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| Or something. | |
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| re: Isn't it time for us to transcend these outmoded beliefs about gender and, umm, species? | |
| Posted by: wmgrad1976 02:42 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: Isn't it time for us to transcend these outmoded beliefs about gender and, umm, species? - MockingbirdGirl 02:40 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| It wasn't that deep of a question. | |
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| re: Isn't it time for us to transcend these outmoded beliefs about gender and, umm, species? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:24 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Isn't it time for us to transcend these outmoded beliefs about gender and, umm, species? - wmgrad1976 02:42 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| It wasn't even a slightly deep question. | |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: kess0078 12:59 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: If Milky White is a cow - wmgrad1976 11:57 am EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| This may be vastly overthinking a mundane question - but Jack DOES continually refer to Milky White as “he” (and is often corrected by his mother, at that). Perhaps the anthropological interpretation is through Jack’s vantage point - and he would see Milky White’s expressions as from a fellow “boy,” as that is how he has imagined Milky White’s personality. |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: kess0078 03:52 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - kess0078 12:59 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| *meant anthropomorphic, not anthropological - autocorrect strikes again | |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 12:22 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:21 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: If Milky White is a cow - wmgrad1976 11:57 am EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| I've done a production where we had a female actor play Milky-White. In Shakespeare's day, men played women. In the recent 1776 headed to Broadway, women play men. Caroline in Gypsy is sometimes played by a man (shared with Louise). And...Jack sometimes thinks Milky White is a he, anyway. :-) Ultimately, it's called acting. :-) |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:54 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Chromolume 12:21 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| All true, but… the text absolutely states that Milky White is female, and a male actor implies the opposite. OP is right, it should be a female-identifying actor. Obviously, I blame Chad Kimball for this, lol, but really, this is another of the many things that Lapine got wrong in his misguided Broadway revival. |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 02:44 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:42 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Singapore/Fling 01:54 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| the text absolutely states that Milky White is female, and a male actor implies the opposite. Off the top of my head: Edna Turnblad Mary Sunshine Tamate and The Shogun's Mother (et al) Dorothy Michaels (a male actor playing a male actor playing a woman) Mrs. Luce (one of the roles doubled by Orin in Little Shop) - and a case might be made for Audrey II as well. Miss Trunchbull All characters stated as female in the text. Next? |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:37 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Chromolume 02:42 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| And those are self-consciously drag performances, as is Lady Bracknell. Defaulting to men playing Milky White seems more like laziness or carelessness, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde. Next? |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 06:53 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:50 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Singapore/Fling 03:37 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| I think the only self-conscious drag performance on my list is Michael Dorsey choosing to pretend to be Dorothy Michaels. (And even then, the conceit is that she is supposed to be a real woman.) The others are very much cis female roles all written to be performed by men. Roles like Mary Sunshine are traditionally played by a male actor credited with a first initial, so as to not call attention to his actual identity. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I don't buy it. |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 10:42 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:35 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Chromolume 06:50 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| We’re taking about theater styles, here. Edna is written for a man in drag because the role was originally written for Divine, because “Hairspray” was John Waters first attempt at making a queer film for a mainstream audience, and so he hid the queerness in plain sight, and that continued into the musical; but we as an audience are aware we are watching a man in drag. Mary Sunshine’s entire role in “Chicago” builds up to the reveal that she’s been a man this entire time, and that we were fooled. If we were meant to read her as a woman upon exiting the show, we would stay in the dark about the performer; notably the film chose to cast a female-identifying actress who played the role as cis. You write that the actor is credited by their first initial so as not to call attention to their identity, but their last moment in the show is to snatch off their wig, thus making us aware of their identity, which also makes the first initial a clear act of subterfuge, thus commenting on how much we can trust the media. I’ve read enough of your comments to know that you’re generally much more observant and accurate when talking about theater than you’re being here. Trunchbull goes back to Panto, and we’re also aware that we’re watching an archetype of an un-sexed woman being performed by a man. Bracknell, as mentioned elsewhere, is often performed by a man to reference the sexuality of Wilde and the idea that this character is ultimately a drag persona - and also because of Panto. Dorothy is a weird one to toss out, because she isn’t even real, and I was very surprised that you went there, again because I think I of you as one of the smartest people on this site. Milky White is a female cow who was originally going to be played by female actors in the first human-performed production, but because they couldn’t make a costume that was functional for the female body, they cast a man instead. The costume for that show, as well as the puppet in this new revival, are in a theatrical language in which we understand that the character is an extension of the performer, and nothing in either production tells us that we’re watching an example of cross-gendered casting. I’m sort of amazed at the ire OP is getting for rightfully pointing out that this should be a woman’s part. This isn’t a production that is working outside of gender binaries, and it’s an awkward fit to make the case that this is an example of gender being fluid. Maybe if Alex Newell was playing The Witch or Cinderella, then we’d be in that conversation. But this is a cis-gender show with a man playing a female cow. |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:22 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Singapore/Fling 10:35 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| Oy. | |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:18 am EDT 09/05/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Chromolume 11:22 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| Wow, man, I really thought you were better than that. | |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:26 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Chromolume 02:42 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| Lady Bracknell (in several high-profile productions) | |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Posted by: Manager-561 02:11 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Singapore/Fling 01:54 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| In the LA premiere (pre-Broadway) of the previous revival, Kate Reinders was originally cast as Milky White, but according to an old Playbill article I found, the costume was too heavy for her, and Chad Kimball took over the part. | |
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| re: If Milky White is a cow | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:39 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:36 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
| In reply to: re: If Milky White is a cow - Manager-561 02:11 pm EDT 09/04/22 | |
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| It's true. In the 2002 revival, Milky White was played by an actor in a wrinkly cow costume, with crutches to simulate its front legs. In a 2003 interview for The Sondheim Review, Chad Kimball told me: ''I was originally cast as a cover for Jack and Rapunzel's Prince. Kate Reinders and Jennifer Malenke were supposed to play the cow, but in rehearsals, the physical stress was too much for them.'' So he took over and thought: ''I can't believe having to play the cow. It's gonna hurt. It's gonna suck.'' And it initially took him a half-hour to get into the costume, which he later got down to 4 minutes. Plus, he later needed to get physical therapy. But overall, Chad says playing Milky White ''was a blast and I had so much fun.'' Like Kanagawa, it was Kimball's Broadway stage debut, and his scene-stealing performance as Milky White got him lots of attention and publicity. |
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