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| Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: kieran 01:02 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| On the Joan Hamburg Show yesterday, Feinstein spoke about meeting his musical heroes— Ira Gershwin, Leonard Bernstein et al. Asked if they were all good to him, he paused, then mentioned the one sometimes-exception: Sondheim. He explained that Sondheim could be wonderful but also was prickly, not just with him but with everyone. He went on to say that the composer was an alcoholic and could be very mean because of his addiction. | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: dreambaby 12:56 pm EST 11/23/22 | |
| In reply to: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - kieran 01:02 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| In the late '70's a guy then in his early 30's spoke to me about having "dated" Sondheim for a while in the early '70's, describing him as both a heavy drinker, and, eventually, very unkind and mean to him. I haven't heard this corroborated before (at least to this extent). I will disclose that my respect and love for Sondheim's work is enormous. | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: peter3053 02:58 pm EST 11/23/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - dreambaby 12:56 pm EST 11/23/22 | |
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| There is a significant difference between being a heavy drinker and being an alcoholic. | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 02:07 pm EST 11/22/22 | |
| In reply to: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - kieran 01:02 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Sondheim (2012): I don't drink whisky, I drink vodka. And actually now I rarely drink at all, but if I do, it tends to be wine. I've always sipped something when writing lyrics, because it's the words that are difficult. | |
| Link | Stephen Sondheim, composer – portrait of the artist |
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| You should speak ill of the dead | |
| Posted by: JAllenC3 11:38 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - kieran 01:02 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| To quote Sondheim himself, "My answer is cowardly but simple: criticize only the dead. I have never believed in 'de mortuis nil nisi bonum'; speaking ill exclusively of the dead seems to me the gentlemanly thing to do. The subject cannot be personally hurt, and his reputation is unlikely to be affected by anything you say" | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Last Edit: BarryJ 05:51 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| Posted by: BarryJ 05:50 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - kieran 01:02 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Feinstein not only mentioned Alcoholism but "other things". He said that one evening his assistant phoned Sondheim to ask if he had any preference as to dinner that night. He said Sondheim replied; "Vodka, Vodka and more vodka". | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: Roman 05:13 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - BarryJ 05:50 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| And a straw? | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: peter3053 04:57 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - BarryJ 05:50 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| This "Vodka" line sounds like a light-hearted joke on Sondheim's part. I would be curious to know how many times Mr Feinstein, whom I admire, met with Sondheim to form such a judgement. Sondheim, somewhere in all his comments about writing, said he took a drink to loosen up before trying to write. I'm not sure that alcoholics are always so honest about drinking. It seems remarkable to me that someone with a serious alcoholic problem could think and write with such precision over so many years; of course there are functioning alcoholics, but often at some point their whole world collapses. Sondheim's flintiness might also be in part the result of his mother's unsettling effect on his youth. I think the evidence points in an opposite direction to the thrust of Mr Feinstein's passing remark. |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: theaterisok 09:48 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - BarryJ 05:50 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Hemingway was an alcoholic. What is his point other than be gossipy? | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 02:19 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - theaterisok 09:48 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Why not? For the sake of history, we want to understand as much as we can about major world figures. Sondheim was an alcoholic. We have to stop looking at it as a moral failing but as a disease, addiction. Did it affect his work and relationships? It will take lots of analysis to determine. Without that fact, we could be ignoring a major part of who he was. |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 06:13 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:12 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - Zelgo 02:19 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| "Sondheim was an alcoholic." Only according to Mr. Feinstein so far, it would seem. Do we have other evidence? Do we believe Feinstein outright? |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 07:50 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - Chromolume 06:12 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Well, I suppose we can only assuming he is making such a statement based on observation--which should remind us that we often make inferences about other people's addictions based on our observations--such as addicition to bad cosmetic surgery, to pick a random example. | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Posted by: bmc 06:41 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - Chromolume 06:12 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Several years back I attended a concert performance of PORGY AND BESS at Ann arbor's hill auditorium .Earlier in the day there was a lecture/ discussion hosted by Lee Gershwin s two nephews. I was having a pleasant discussion afterward with one of the nephews, and i said Sondheim 2 books were like Ira Gershwin's LYRICS ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. I Conversation ended. He walks of in a huff, saying he(Sondheim) is psychotic;.No love between Gershwin circles and Mr Sondheim/ | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:07 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit - bmc 06:41 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| are you able to place this event in time in relation to Sondheim's very vocal disparagement of (some would say tantrum about) the Gershwin estate's handling of Porgy on Broadway in 2012? That might explain a lot. I try to judge people on their achievements, not their deficits. I don't know if or when this might have been a Sondheim demon. Rumors (all sorts), he had a few (to mix metaphors pretty badly), and that there is a backstory (or a few) with Feinstein seems palpable. Do we care? To me this says more about MF than SS. | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Posted by: Rookie 11:03 am EST 11/23/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit - ryhog 09:07 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Could you possibly recall the date of this encounter? That is, before or after Sondheim criticized the title "The Gershwin's Porgy and Bess," which was the billing for the 2012 Bway production? | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Last Edit: Seth Christenfeld 09:59 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| Posted by: Seth Christenfeld (tabula-rasa@verizon.net) 09:59 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit - ryhog 09:07 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| I imagine it was less about Sondheim's (understandable) disparagement of the Porgy and Bess revival and more about his open distaste for Ira Gershwin as a lyricist, as noted in the Hat books. Seth, not about to go digging them out for a citation |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:06 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit - Seth Christenfeld 09:59 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| You def don't need to. I just wonder if the nephew would have been that looped in to that. I'd think they would definitely be angry about the other but I don't pretend to know that. | |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Posted by: bmc 11:01 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit - ryhog 10:06 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| sorry, i cant remember if it was before or after the Gershwin porgy and Bess,on bway i think either would have been sufficient' .Sondheim mentioned that all the good lyrics in Act one were the work of DuBose Heyward. at any rate, the nephew was very p.o.,d |
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| re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:53 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim./feinstein was in the Gershwin orbit - bmc 11:01 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
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| The fact that the Gershwin estate decided to unequivocally shut out the massive contribution of Heyward should be literally criminal. I've never understood that decision. Sondheim was right. | |
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| Hmmm… | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 02:29 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Michael Feinstein on Sondheim. - kieran 01:02 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| I have no doubt Feinstein has reasons for what he said that were based on his own experiences with the man… but considering Sondheim is pretty much universally acknowledged as the greatest Broadway composer/lyricist of the last 50-60 years, if not of all time, voicing those views and that opinion right now sure seems like a strange way to commemorate the 1st anniversary of his death, one year ago this week. Might in fact be one of the quintessential examples – at least at this precise moment in time – of “If you don’t have nice things to say…” etc. etc. |
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| re: Hmmm… | |
| Posted by: standingO 06:19 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Hmmm… - ShowGoer 02:29 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| The timing may be “too soon” and I have no idea if the information is true. But if Sondheim is one of the most important composers of the modern era, why not get a more complete picture of him from those who knew him. Many writers have struggles and yet produce amazing works. Sometimes the creative process is the cause of it… and sometimes not. |
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| re: "Why not get a more complete picture of him from those who knew him" | |
| Posted by: Dale 09:44 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Hmmm… - standingO 06:19 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Well, it won't be Michael Feinstein! They didn't travel in the same circles! Stating someone was an alcoholic I'd have ask "When?". People change including their vices. If you view the documentary on the recoding of the cast album of "Company" you'd see everyone smoking like a chimney... 3 decades later: "Does anyone still light up a Lucky?". Ruth Mitchell once slapped a cigarette out of Florence Klotz' mouth as witnessed by their housekeeper Ruthie Bethea ( would have made a Hell of a Tik Tok video ). We know Steve likes his herbs and that is easier on the liver. It seemed everyone was tooting up in the 1980's. My other half decorated Hal Prince's East 81st Street townhouse at Christmas time and one year Judy Prince remarked that the crowd would be having their refreshments BEFORE they arrived ( not only anti-drug she also had smokers use the kitchen ). Sadly most folks who knew Sondheim are long gone! Judy Prince knew Steve before Hal did due to her Pop Saul Chaplin ( overheard Steve called him "Solly" ). Due to knowing the Princes housekeeper I got to meet Sondheim ex-housekeeper Grace Mizrahi and she had stories ( worked at his Turtle Bay place late 1970's/early 1980's ). She was the one who let the next door neighbor on the left into his house and when Steve "How could you do that?" she replied "I'm still little Gracie Mizrahi from The Bronx. She's Katharine Hepburn!". Grace had worked for the Prince organization in the 1960's and she with her Dad pooled in $3,000 to invest in a little show of Hal's called "Fiddler On The Roof". And the investment kept paying back! |
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| re: "Why not get a more complete picture of him from those who knew him" | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 10:13 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Why not get a more complete picture of him from those who knew him" - Dale 09:44 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| "Well, it won't be Michael Feinstein! They didn't travel in the same circles" True, but he never said they traveled in the same circles. He was talking about people he'd admired and then gotten to meet/know. All the same, Dale, a delightful post. |
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| Love that detail, Dale! | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 09:51 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: "Why not get a more complete picture of him from those who knew him" - Dale 09:44 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Thank you for sharing! | |
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| re: Hmmm… | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 05:55 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: Hmmm… - ShowGoer 02:29 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| He has every right to be true to his own experience. I don’t doubt that Sondheim had his complexities. | |
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| re: Hmmm… | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:54 am EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Hmmm… - TheOtherOne 05:55 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| I don’t doubt that Sondheim had his complexities. Of course. He was human. Are any of us angels all the time to everyone, without vices and dark sides? |
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| re: Hmmm… | |
| Posted by: portenopete 04:51 pm EST 11/21/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Hmmm… - Chromolume 11:54 am EST 11/21/22 | |
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| Of course we are not all angels, but arguably Stephen Sondheim was treated like a god (or, per New York Magazine, God themself). With each passing year his sacrosanct reputation only burnished and deepened, with people realising that we were being gifted with his presence in our lives for longer than we might have logically expected. It doesn't seem surprising that people are being more frank in talking about him now that he is gone. He set the precedent with his lacerating comments about fellow lyricists in his two (wonderful) books and his decision to not comment on those still living. | |
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