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| has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:09 pm EST 12/18/22 | |
| In reply to: re: SWEENEY TODD recoupment - AlanScott 04:53 pm EST 12/16/22 | |
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| I don't know what they wanted or intended, maybe they tried and no one would sign on who they could afford. But it's an incredible role, in a musical by the most acclaimed composer alive at the time, fresh off a nearly inconceivable number of Tony wins that decade, in a show that swept the Tonys and won it for Lansbury. And it's one of the most delicious roles in musicals. Challenging as it would be to take on, and to replace Lansbury... surely there were some names interested in it? I wonder. (And i'm not implying i am not glad theater actors got to do it in that production... but just because the production was so costly, it seems an obvious thing to do) |
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| re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:06 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
| In reply to: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - Chazwaza 10:09 pm EST 12/18/22 | |
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| Dorothy Loudon was on a career high, having triumphed in Annie. I think it was not altogether implausible that she would be something of a draw. I doubt anyone was under the illusion that the box office would not suffer without Lansbury and (to a lesser degree) Cariou, but I would think Loudon did not get paid what Lansbury was paid. But there really was a shortage of star names who would have been right for the role and capable of its demands and probably even more of a shortage who would be willing to commit to an extended run in the role. I can think of two people who might have been right for the role and capable of its demands (at least for a short run): Jean Stapleton and Carol Burnett. Can you think of anyone else? Stapleton eventually played the role for a short run in San Jose, but in 1980 she was in her upper 50s, almost three years years older than Lansbury. She may well have felt, if she was approached (I have no idea if she was), that she might not be up to an extended run performing the role eight times a week. I have no idea if Burnett was thought of or approached, but her problems during Fade Out—Fade In might well have given them second thoughts about even approaching her. I very much doubt she would have signed on in 1980. And there would also be the question of whether her presence might throw the show off, unless a comparable name was found for Sweeney (and possibly even if one had been hired). I think Burnett herself might well have been reluctant to risk being compared unfavorably to Lansbury, as you suggest might have been a concern for possible replacements. The one other person might have been Estelle Parsons, who reportedly auditioned to be the replacement and reportedly was approached for the tour when Lansbury initially turned it down. She might have been an excellent Mrs. Lovett, but I don't think she would have been much of a draw. A name but not a draw. I have said here before that I think the combination of Stapleton and Richard Kiley, who was approached to be the Sweeney replacement but turned it down, might have helped the box office remain reasonably steady for a while. Not sure that either one without a comparable co-star would have done all that much for the box office, but Kiley just might have, at least with a name opposite him. But given his unwillingness to play Quixote (Cervantes) more than seven times a week by the late 1970s, I can't imagine why they ever thought he would play Sweeney, arguably an even more demanding role, eight times a week. Kiley and Parsons or even Kiley and Loudon together might have worked at the box office, although I think (entirely hypothetical) Kiley and Stapleton would have done best. Maybe not spectacularly but well enough. The other person who was approached for Sweeney (apart from Hearn, an experienced and respected actor but not a draw at all), John Cullum, would not have been much of a draw. I am doubtful that the show would have done much better with Cullum and Loudon than with Hearn and Loudon. As has been mentioned here in the past, Cullum turned down the offer, which he later said he regretted. |
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| a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 11:29 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:18 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - AlanScott 06:06 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
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| You know who I most wonder if they'd considered? Gwen Verdon. Not the greatest cockney accent but she certainly won a Tony doing one. And she was great at comedy, and relatively fresh off Chicago 3 years prior. Not a movie star or tv star name, but a Broadway legend, and of course knew Hal. I think Shirley MacClaine would have been a big hit if she would have done it and could have pulled it off. No idea if she has the accent ability, but she has the acting and singing ability. I can't imagine her in the role really, but that's why it's exciting to me. And I can imagine her being interested in a broadway success in a great role in a great musical at that time in her career. Glenn Close would have been recently famous as a film actress in 1981, and not only was a stage actress who could sing and wanted to do musicals, but had been in a Hal Prince show in the 70s (something called Love for Love)... and she'd just been Tony nominated for a musical in 1980! She's great with accents and I can absolutely see her being willing to step into a show like Sweeney Todd for a role like that. Meryl Streep would have been too young and busy... but that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. And certainly a theater actress who can sing and would have been a big draw in 1981 already. And wasn't she officially interested in doing the role at some point, wasn't she attached as Lovett when Spielberg was going to do it, with Kevin Kline as Sweeney? Carol Kane I really would be curious about, if she could do the accent. Mary Tyler Moore is another one I wonder about. I don't know if her voice could handle it and I doubt she'd ever even consider it, but she did of course do a famous flop musical already. I also wonder if Goldie Hawn was ever in the conversation. (young for it but it's conceivable to have an under 40 Lovett, and not sure about her ability with accents) She wouldn't even have been available I'm sure, even if she wanted to, but who knows... maybe! Or Bette Midler. (also the accents issue -- also highly doubt she'd have committed at the time, but you never know when someone wants to return to the stage or earn some new kind of clout as an actor) I have to assume that Burnett, being a friend of both Hal and Steve (even also being thought of a cast for Follies in Concert in such a choice role 4 years later), and being such a big draw, that she was thought of and decided against by them or by her if offered. Julie Andrews is an obvious one to wonder about. Someone else wrote in this thread that she's not a fit for the role... says who. Who knows. I'm mainly interested in if they offered it to her. But I do very much doubt she'd have considered replacing anyone, let alone such a tough act to follow and with no eligibility for awards. Maybe Vanessa Redgrave got in the mix? Not a good enough singer, and I doubt she'd have replaced, but who knows. And I wonder if Petula Clark was thought of it would have put her name in the hat. And what I really would have loved... Judi Dench. Not by any means a star or name in movies or TV or America yet, but of course a very key relationship with Hal having created Sally in his production of Cabaret for the West End premiere. Millicent Martin, already an established Sondheim performer from Side By Side, would also have been a great choice is they'd been able to get her over... not to sell tickets though, of course. |
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| re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:04 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| In reply to: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time - Chazwaza 11:18 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
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| I have read that Verdon disliked Prince. Eventually, they reconciled (when Nicole Fosse was cast in Phantom), but I think I have read that she felt that Prince had tried to take advantage of Fosse's heart attack to take over Chicago when it seems that Prince had just said that he would be willing if they wanted him to take over. I think that by 1980 she could not have sung Lovett without significant changes made. By that time, her upper range was very limited. She's an interesting idea, but for those reasons alone, she would have been unlikely. Glenn Close did not become well-known until The World According to Garp in 1982. Remember Sweeney Todd closed in 1980, when she was appearing in a supporting role in Barnum. So not exactly a name. Dench was virtually unknown in the U.S. Millicent Martin would probably have been an excellent Lovett but she was less of a name in the U.S. than any of the women mentioned in my earlier post, and less of a name than Loudon in the U.S. I thought this was about possible Lovetts who would have been bigger names than Loudon, not just women who might have been good in the role. Martin would have been about zero draw. Mary Tyler Moore was reportedly approached about replacing Diana Rigg in Follies in London, a role for which she would have been right, but I don't see her as being at all right for Mrs. Lovett. She also may have been approached about being a replacement Witch, but according to Liz Smith, she went to see it while Betsy Joslyn was playing the role and thought that Joslyn was so good and it was implied that she may have been intimidated by the role's demands. She had a limited singing voice. Would have been fine for Phyllis but not fine for the Witch. And I think singing Lovett would have been a real stretch for her and possibly not a very successful one. MacLaine and Hawn (the latter way too young and I think wrong for the role even when older) had distinctly limited stage-acting experience, and I can't imagine that either (especially Hawn) would have been interested. I have doubts about MacLaine singing the role, even if she had been interested. Carol Kane was never a star name with any draw, and she was much less of a name than Loudon in 1979 when they were looking for a replacement. Also, she was 27. Just two years earlier, she had played high-school student Tillie in the revival of The Effect of Gamma Rays. Her first appearance on Taxi was in January 1980. Hester Street had been in 1975, but although she and the film received acclaim and attention, it didn't make her a draw. Midler is a character actress and as such probably could have gotten away with playing the role in terms of age, but I think she had zero interest in returning to Broadway in a musical for an extended run or she would have done it. Her salary demands would have been huge, although she might well have drawn enough to justify it. I just think she would have had no interest, and as with Burnett, her simple presence would have thrown things off, if only because of audience expectations. Petula Clark seems to have never been much of an actress. In 1981, she starred as Maria in The Sound of Music in London. So despite her actual age, her image was that of someone younger. She was older than Mary Martin when she played Maria. Andrews was another who simply was not interested in returning to Broadway in a musical for an extended run. If she had been interested, she would have done it. Can't see her replacing anyone. Streep was mentioned in the press as a possibility for On the Twentieth Century, which I am guessing was Prince's idea, but the authors wanted Kahn. Anyway, she would have been too young and although she did the Alice musical around this time, as you say she was so in demand in film that she very clearly was not interested in doing a long run of a show. Not sure Redgrave would have been right for the role. I think she might have managed to sing it, but although she can do almost anything, she doesn't seem to me a natural for the role. And if anything, they would have asked her for London. |
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| re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Posted by: larry13 12:50 am EST 12/24/22 | |
| In reply to: re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time - AlanScott 05:04 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
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| Didn't Verdon's dislike of Prince go back LONG before CHICAGO? Didn't she and Fosse vow never to work again with him after NEW GIRL IN TOWN and the censoring of the brothel ballet? | |
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| re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:49 pm EST 12/24/22 | |
| In reply to: re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time - larry13 12:50 am EST 12/24/22 | |
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| I don't see in the Wasson bio anything quite so specific as vowing never to work with him again (I could be missing it), but conflicts between Prince and Fosse go back to Damn Yankees. (I could borrow the Gottfried bio from Internet Archive and look in there. Maybe I will later.) And I did wonder when I posted if I should mention Yankees instead. For some reason I forgot about New Town, although I know the history well. Verdon seems to have been more angry at Abbott than Prince about that, but undoubtedly at both. At least that's the impression I get from the Wasson bio. But, based on Wasson, it seems that by the early 1970s, Fosse's anger at Prince had subsided. But Verdon's might well have still been active as there is an account of a dinner with Prince, his wife, the Simons and Fosse, with Gwen not showing up, but seemingly because the marriage was in trouble, not because of anger at Prince. Thanks for bringing this up. It certainly is likely that Verdon feeling at least some anger toward Prince went way back. |
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| re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 07:00 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time - AlanScott 05:04 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
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| Beautifully stated, as always. I don’t know if it is fair to Ms. Clark. I just listened to a recent podcast BROADWAY TO MAINSTREET which was a 90th birthday tribute to Clark. It highlights her performances in Sunset Boulevard, Evita (on recording), Sound of Music and Finian’s Rainbow. I was bowled over by her musicianship, phrasing, power and intelligence. A big surprise was her recording of Corner of the Sky with Dusty Springfield (!) and the “B” side of Downtown which is You Better Love Me from High Spirits! And Whatever Lola Wants sung in French. Such a rich career. | |
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| re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 07:44 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:43 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time - Billhaven 07:00 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
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| Thank you for the kind words. I will take it back about Clark. She is very good in the Finian's Rainbow film, even though I don't much care for the movie itself. Was thinking more of hearing not great things about her Norma Desmond, but some did like her in the role. It wasn't till today that I quite realized how old she was when she played Maria. :) |
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| re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:24 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:23 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: a few actress I wonder about for Lovett at the time - AlanScott 05:04 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
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| All valid. Just to be clear these were not people I thought all would be the right fit or an obvious fit, just people who might have been an interesting fit or more importantly a draw. And also regardless of if they'd have said yes. I've worked for producers, in film tv and broadway, I've seen lists of people they'd consider for star casting... most of the names are a mix of mildly to wildly inappropriate for the role and/or completely unrealistic for being available or interested, forget about finding a financial arrangement they'd be into and the show could make work. I'm wondering if they had this kind of list for this show, or spoke to anyone (who didn't end up playing Lovett in the production) about replacing... even if they were never going to say yes or would have been a bad fit. And much it was guessing. For example, you'd know better about Carol Kane's draw at the time, for example, I'm going off her recent Oscar nom, and thinking she might have been an interesting casting. And Hawn I don't think is a good fit for it, MacLaine either, I just know they are name stars who sing and like musicals. |
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| One person I didn't mention | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:20 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - AlanScott 06:06 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
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| In past discussions of possible Lovett replacements, I have mentioned Charlotte Rae. I didn't mention her this time because she was not a star name in 1980. Not an unknown, of course, but notably less of a draw, I think, than anyone I did mention. It's too bad she never did the role because she seems like great casting for it. | |
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| re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 07:26 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 07:26 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
| In reply to: re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - AlanScott 06:06 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
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| I saw Loudon’s second performance, which was enthusiastically greeted by a NY fan base that spelled initial excitement. I realize that early cheers for a beloved star - and she was a theater star - are a Broadway regularity. But there was much enthusiasm when she was announced. I thought she was game, and delivered the sizable Lovett I prefer. It needs that musical hall component to counter Sweeney’s grim gravity, and Loudon gave unstintingly. She went up in “By the Sea” (covering masterfully) but by then had the audience with her. I was in my late 20s and didn’t follow box office but presumed she was a draw. Yes, I bought my weeknight seat at TKTS, rear orchestra, which is itself a comment on her impact. | |
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| re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:57 pm EST 12/20/22 | |
| In reply to: re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - Delvino 07:26 pm EST 12/19/22 | |
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| Because of the size of the theatre, it was often up at the TKTS booth even during the first year. A week and a half before Cariou and Lansbury's last performance, I even picked up a seat at TKTS, although it was in the balcony. The house was packed that night, but I guess there were enough empty seats in the balcony to have been sent over. And some nights during the winter, I am sure you could have gotten pretty decent seats at the TKTS booth. I liked much of what Loudon did. I found her "By the Sea," however, disappointingly small, which I thought hurt the show. In general, I felt her performance was surprisingly a bit smaller than I might have expected, although from time to time she would suddenly mug in a way that seemed very out of place. For me, it was an interesting performance full of intelligence and here and there brilliance, but not quite fully successful. Closing week, however, she seems to have suddenly jumped up to another level, perhaps because finally they were playing to big houses. Her performance was certainly very, very far from Lansbury's. I don't know how much was Prince directing to her to give a different performance than Lansbury's (and Sondheim perhaps coaching her to do some very different things) and how much was her own concept. Hearn was also very different from Cariou, although years later he said that he imitated Cariou when he first did it. Didn't look that way to me, nor to anyone else I knew back then who was in a position to compare them. |
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| re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:57 am EST 12/19/22 | |
| In reply to: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - Chazwaza 10:09 pm EST 12/18/22 | |
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| Dorothy Loudon was certainly a name. She had won the Tony for an acclaimed performance in Annie just two years prior and had gotten another nomination for Ballroom earlier in the year. I can’t think of a star who could have stepped into that role short of Julie Andrews, not a fit for Mrs. Lovett. | |
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| re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Posted by: bowtie7 06:14 pm EST 12/25/22 | |
| In reply to: re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - Billhaven 10:57 am EST 12/19/22 | |
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| What about Linda Lavin?--she was at the height of her television fame at that time. Certainly would have had to have been scheduled around her tv schedule. She returned to Broadway as soon as the tv show ended. | |
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| re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:49 pm EST 12/25/22 | |
| In reply to: re: has it been said why they didn't replace Lansbury with a name? - bowtie7 06:14 pm EST 12/25/22 | |
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| I think she would not have been able to sign for more than three or four months because of the shooting schedule. So then they would have to find someone to replace her. As it turned out, it ran only four months more anyway but I'm sure they were hoping for more. | |
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