Threaded Order Chronological Order
| The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 10:51 am EST 12/26/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| TCM has made The Apartment part of their holiday package, appropriately. It's appeared at least three times recently and I dipped in twice. I was a teenage fan of Promises, Promises, which I saw try out at the National in DC when I was in high school. It may seem very post-How to Succeed now, the Succeed corporate office sequences almost cloned in spots, but at the time the Bacharach score was electric, those pit voices, the pop stylings that evoked Dionne Warwick. That overture, a roof-raiser. The show hasn't aged well, as the badly reviewed revival attested, perhaps another discussion entirely. Yet when Promises arrived, The Apartment was about 8 years old, and not a TV staple. In fact, it never played on television. Back then (it opened in cinemas when I was 8), adult fare was cherry-picked for television airings, and for various reasons, The Apartment wasn't available -- no VHS -- for comparisons. So now it's far more clear to me how closely Simon hewed to the Diamond-Wilder script (see the Some Like it Hot discussions). Simon made the Lemmon-Orbach character the unreliable narrator, a charming device allowing Chuck to stop the action, rewind, tell us what he had made up. But otherwise, the show is remarkably true to the film. Structurally, an exact match. The doctor sequences seem lifted almost verbatim. What remains intriguing: watching The Apartment now, it's hard to fathom exactly how the dark movie inspired a musical comedy. That second hour is quite a grim trajectory, a suicide attempt -- and on film, a damned close one -- on Christmas Eve. Moving the show's storytelling from songs like "Where Can You Take a Girl?" (it brought the house down, seriously) to "Turkey Lurkey Time" and then to a second act dominated by a young woman trying to kill herself in a man's apartment feels jarring. I don't recall that aspect -- a tonal shift -- being noted. The Fran character in the musical -- though given three score-defining numbers -- seems less dimensional. Shirley MacLaine made her absolutely real, an energetic young woman with a dry wit, a savvy witness as she opened and closed her elevator. Knowing the show far better, I was surprised, now noting how comparatively underwritten she feels in the musical. A quirky, eccentric anti-ingenue in 1960 became an almost generic young woman in 1968. Simon just wasn't that into her. Jill O'Hara, in some ways MacLaine-esque, did her best -- her distinctive vocals are charming --- but it's odd how uninteresting she is, in scene after scene, in comparison to MacLaine. She has no defining characteristics, no dreams, no goal, no history. And unlike the MacLaine Fran, rather bored, not especially good at her dull job: a hostess in the office restaurant wasn't ripe for comedy like an elevator operator. They added two songs for the woefully miscast Chenoweth in the overthought Mad Men-centric revival, poorly shoehorned ("A House is Not a Home," simply awful as a tag of the first act, in effect stealing from Fran's second act ballad, upstaging Chuck's revelations). The show is something of a sexist curiosity now, trying to have it both ways: let's laugh at these horny middle-aged guys sneaking around on their marriages, dallying with young women, ha ha ha, while creating a viable romance amid the immoral detritus. It ran over 1200 performances, and folks loved it. The Apartment has aged far better. Seen today, it offers a level of reality -- a gritty, ugly one at that -- that Promises couldn't quite get near, even including the suicide attempt. The show is built on a male epiphany in the 11 o'clock spot title song, the film on a more balanced intersection of Fran's and Chuck's sober concessions to life's trade-offs, as equals. Yes, they both have the same last scene; but it feels more fairly arrived at in the movie. The musical, whether burdening Fran with more pop songs or not, doesn't really have much of a leading lady. A curiosity indeed. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: raydan 12:23 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Watching The Apartment, I not only was mentally inserting PP musical numbers in my head, I also kept thinking about ‘How to Succeed’. Shepherd Mead’s book preceded IAL Diamonds screenplay by about 8 years. Also thinking about the Doris Day and Rock Hudson films from the Mad Men era that had similar vibes. | |
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| Adolph Deutsch vs Burt Bacharach | |
| Posted by: dczoo 11:45 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| No contest. | |
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| The show's logo | |
| Posted by: Amiens 10:15 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Thinking of the original production's two memorable and infamous logos, the first, a group of young women in skimpy nighties and scanty rompers (who certainly didn't invoke secretaries and receptionists) hanging off of a big phallic key, and the second (well into the run), a cartoonish young woman who seems to be wearing nothing but black stockings and gloves falling backwards on her behind, it would seem that the show was always intended to be something of the "tired businessman's delight" or whatever that genre of mindless sex romp was called. So it doesn't surprise me that Fran Kubelik's inner turmoil or yearnings were anybody's priority in creating the show. Of course, the production, with its sophisticated and contemporary Bacharach score and Michael Bennett's inventive choreography, not to mention Simon's astute libretto, turned out much more artful than David Merrick or (perhaps) even the creators ever intended. |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 05:37 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 05:35 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: The show's logo - Amiens 10:15 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Thank you. I discussed the logos for Promises in a Twitter thread on The Apartment. That first poster with the negligée-clad women marketed the show thru the prism of the philandering execs, objectifying the women exploited in the workplace to suggest a “sexy” post Hefner entertainment. (Remember when “sexy” was a common descriptor?). That second logo - which at best looks like a Can Can design - is less real but even more unsettling if you pause to consider what’s suggested. Your comment is spot on, and makes the case. It has less to do with Simon and David and more to say about what constituted “sophisticated adult” fare at the end of the sixties. The very topic of The Apartment’s story was ignored: the show was marketed to entice with straight white male prism - the tired businessman seeking a show about tired businessmen who misbehave. |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Posted by: singleticket 12:33 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: The show's logo - Amiens 10:15 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| ...it would seem that the show was always intended to be something of the "tired businessman's delight" or whatever that genre of mindless sex romp was called. ... 1968 Times Square was still an adult entertainment district. Even HAIR had a bit of nudie come-on to it... exploitation mixed with revolution. |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:06 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The show's logo - singleticket 12:33 am EST 12/27/22 | |
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| There's 1 very short section with nudity. It's as if it was part of the marketing like Oh Calcutta. And I think it's silly to call it exploitation at all. The brief nudity in Hair is about freedom, expression, sexual freedom, non-conformity, fighting the status quo, etc. It's not to titillate audiences with sex or sexual acts or teasing. | |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:27 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The show's logo - Chazwaza 03:06 am EST 12/27/22 | |
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| As the nudity was not in the show at the Public, I rather think it was added for publicity value more than anything else. And it worked. It got a massive amount of publicity, and I have little doubt it was part of the reason that the show was such a hit. | |
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| Hair | |
| Posted by: Amiens 08:59 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The show's logo - Chazwaza 03:06 am EST 12/27/22 | |
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| While I might agree with you that the nudity in Hair could be considered a part of the story-telling of its characters, such as they are, I think it's a bit disingenuous to think that the nudity wasn't a huge selling point for the production. It may have been more word of mouth than advertising, but it was certainly mentioned in every article (and probably every review) written about the show. Everybody was talking about it. A very similar comparison to Take Me Out, the original production and the revival. Exploitation? I'm not so sure. But getting back to those Promises, Promises logos, I think they were definitely created to titillate, whether the show actually delivered in that way or not. |
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| re: Hair | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:19 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: Hair - Amiens 08:59 am EST 12/27/22 | |
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| Unless we're calling all nudity on stage exploitation, I don't think any that are part of the concept of the play can be called that. Though for what it's worth, both Hair and Take Me Out can be done without the nudity, but I think for both it is inherent to the show and it's worth doing. However it is MUCH more present and visible in Take Me Out. And while of course people are going to mention and write about the nudity in any show with nudity... the show didn't market itself as sexual or nude at all. But yes totally agree the Promises Promises logos were 100% trying to sell that aspect of the show... in a misleading way... it doesn't really reflect the actual show. |
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| Take Me Out | |
| Posted by: Amiens 06:50 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Hair - Chazwaza 06:19 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| How can you do Take Me Out without the nudity? There are 2 scenes that specifically take place in a locker room shower. Though I agree with you that the nudity there is integral to the script and thus not exploitive. |
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| re: Take Me Out | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:07 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: Take Me Out - Amiens 06:50 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| I mean i guess that it could be altered to not need them nude in the shower, it could be in the locker room with towels or underwear (couldn't it in theory? I don't remember what happens in those scenes tbh)... but maybe not. And that isn't doing the play as written. But the play was conceived for it to have the nudity. | |
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| re: Hair | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 12:05 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 11:58 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: Hair - Amiens 08:59 am EST 12/27/22 | |
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| A very similar comparison to Take Me Out, the original production and the revival. Exploitation? I'm not so sure. If there was nudity in TAKE ME OUT, I didn't notice it. I was too excited by the breakthrough in representation by centering LGBT experience in American sports. :) |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:15 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: The show's logo - Amiens 10:15 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| The first one you describe was on the cover of playbills during the first tryout engagement in Boston. By some point during the D.C. run that followed, it became the second, which was used on Broadway for the whole run as far as I can tell. The tryout souvenir program cover used the first, but the Broadway cover used the second. Of course, the cast recording used the first. I suppose the second might be regarded as conveying a certain darkness and social commentary, even in 1968. |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Posted by: Amiens 09:11 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The show's logo - AlanScott 11:15 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Alan, thanks for the details on those logos. I only saw the show in its Boston tryout and owned the album, so that first logo always seemed to represent the show for me. I remember thinking at the time that it evoked some kind of In Like Flint or Matt Helm movie. I'm actually surprised to hear the second one was in use by the Broadway opening, I thought it came about much later in the run. Have to say though that I don't see the darkness or social commentary you do in it. To me it presents the show as a raunchy farce. Though both of the logos may have sold the show, I don't think either represented it well at all. |
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| re: The show's logo | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:36 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The show's logo - Amiens 09:11 am EST 12/27/22 | |
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| Well, to reiterate, I wrote something much more speculative rather than certain about about the possibility of social commentary (which would be about the exploitation of women, if indeed that was any part of the thought behind it): "I suppose the second might be regarded as conveying a certain darkness and social commentary, even in 1968." So possibly, just possibly, but not even probably. Raunchy is a good word for it, and anyone who looked at it might think that maybe this was not a show for the family, not even if the youngest kid was 15 or 16. So while the show was a big hit, I wonder if it really was good marketing. The show really was not daring or shocking for 1968. So I find it odd that they got rid of the original logo, which made the show seem sexy but not vulgar and smutty. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:42 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| One thing about the film is that the ending is not really all that hopeful. He is out of work, she is probably going to quit, and do they really have much of a future together? I'm not so sure, and looking at a Wilder bio the other day, I found that he wasn't so sure. It's a sad, sad movie, giving you a happy ending in which you may not quite believe, although there is relief (and it is believable) that Fran is over Sheldrake for good. I think Simon could write great female characters when he focused on them, although not in Lost in Yonkers, which I can't stand. But Karen in "Visitors from Mamaroneck," Evy in The Gingerbread Lady, whom you mention elsewhere, and most of all Kate in Broadway Bound. Arguably even the last lady, Jeanette, in Last of the Red Hot Lovers. I don't know all of Simon's plays, but Corey and Mrs. Banks also seem to me well-written characters, but they are of their time. Indeed, they are probably better-written than the two men opposite them. But I think Simon generally believed in "Write what you know," and he was a man. He knew and understood men. He loved Chekhov but would never have claimed to be on a level with Chekhov. Btw, I was sure I had seen The Apartment on television before I saw Promises, Promises in February 1970. So I searched for info and found it had it been on CBS as early as 1967. It was given two-and-a-half hours, starting at 9 p.m. There may have been a few trims given that the movie is 125 minutes. Also perhaps of interest is that Comden, Green and Styne owned the rights before Merrick did. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 08:35 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 08:25 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - AlanScott 04:42 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Yeah, I’m now wondering if a cut version was originally licensed for television, common practice for both content and time slot with commercials, and, if the stage rights option(s) impacted subsequent showings. After Promises, I longed to see the film, besotted with that score and the show. And characters. Back in the day, my bigger point, we had no VHS, no video rentals, and for many of us, no cable for decades. So I had no way to rediscover the film at will - something we take for granted now! The Apartment is just a wonderful movie, and TCM’s commitment to it as holiday classic (it opened in June and July of 1960!) is fully earned. Lemmon and MacLaine are just superb. I wasn’t raising a body of work issue with Simon and his female characters, as some farther down in this thread are. I’m focusing on a single adaptation and the decision to explore Fran more in her songs than the script. But as I later note, it’s as much a Hal David issue as a Simon one. She’s curiously devoid of comic moments, which isn’t true of MacLaine via Diamond and Wilder. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:03 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 08:25 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| I'm not sure that there were licensed versions of classic films shown on TV before cable arrived. I can remember seeing different cut versions of classic films on different networks. A film like the 1935 Captain Blood might be cut to 75 minutes on WGN-TV but then shown on WBBM-TV at 99 minutes. I can also recall seeing two or three distinctly different length versions of the 1937 Lost Horizon, depending on which network was showing it. When VHS tapes arrived, it was often the cut version of classic films like the 1939 Gunga Din that was released initially. Beginning in around 1980 or so when Cinemax debuted, we finally were able to see the uncut 117-minute version of Gunga Din, the 119-minute version of Captain Blood, the 124-minute version of the 1932 Sign of the Cross, and countless others. When I first saw Hitchcock's 1948 The Paradine Case on TV (probably WGN-TV), there were scenes with Charles Coburn and other scenes with Gregory Peck and Ethel Barrymore that are not in the standard 116-minute version shown on TCM and available on DVD and Blu-Ray. The recent Kino Lorber Blu-Ray release advertises itself as the 125-minute version, but in reality it's the same truncated 116-minute print that apparently is the only one in distribution today. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:57 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 08:25 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| I think the ready accessibility of films may sometimes be a factor with stage adaptations not doing well. I need hardly mention the current example. Obviously, sometimes a stage adaptation does well precisely because of people's love for the movie, but perhaps by this point in time, there is no guarantee that a beloved older film, a film loved by boomers and older, will necessarily attract that audience, perhaps in part because some adaptations have been mediocre or worse. It's sometimes hard to remember what it was like when you had to wait for a television showing (unless on PBS, a showing interrupted by commercials, possibly cut, sometimes cut a lot, and sometimes panned-and-scanned), a reissue or a showing at a revival house (if you lived near one) to see a movie you love or to see a classic you had never seen. Was "Tick Tock Goes the Clock" still in the show when you saw it in D.C.? I can't help but suspect that the title "Tick Tock" in Company came from Jonathan Tunick. Changing the subject, even though Some Like It Hot the film was at 38 in the recent Sight and Sound poll, I find that a surprising number of my serious movie-loving friends don't like it a lot. A surprising number find it overrated. Re Simon: I was definitely responding in part to those who replied to you. This came up recently with Plaza Suite. I think Karen is a great character, but it was surprising to me that some critics and audience members liked "Visitor From Mamaroneck" least. If anything, she is so much more interestingly written than Sam that the man's role seems almost thankless (which reverses a bit in "Visitor From Forest Hills"). |
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| “Loyal, Resourceful” was in my program* | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 06:00 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 05:44 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - AlanScott 08:57 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| I can’t honestly say if I heard “Our Little Secret” - they inserted slips back then - but I know “I’ll Never Fall in Love Again” had just been added in Boston. “…Goes the Clock” was gone. I must try to dig out my Playbill to fully fact check. “Secret” is the only title change I recall when I got the OBC. But forgive my shaky memory - I was 17. *Wikipedia adds “Cooperative” to the title but I swear it was just the first two words. I need that Playbill. Wait, Alan! Ovrtur! UPDATE: “Loyal Resourceful” was the Boston title; no comma. |
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| re: “Loyal, Resourceful” was in my program* | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:08 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: “Loyal, Resourceful” was in my program* - Delvino 05:44 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| Hey, Delvino. I think ovrtur may be wrong about "Loyal, Resourceful" not having had a comma. I did not input that song list. The Variety song list for Boston opening night has it with a comma. I see that the ovrtur Boston song list must be from late in the Boston run. It's missing several songs in the Variety list. So they must have made cuts and changes very quickly (as used to be common). The Variety list includes two songs I've never heard and I wonder if they were even really in the show on opening night: "Hot Food" and "A Stroke of Luck," in addition to "Loyal, Resourceful" and "Tick Tock Goes the Clock." Interesting that, unlike on Broadway, "Christmas Day" was listed so it must have been a longer number (not a surprise). And a reprise of the title song for Fran at the end, which I suppose is why they recorded Jill O'Hara singing it, which we got on the Kritzerland release. If you find your playbill, let me know if there is a comma. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:45 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - AlanScott 08:57 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Count me among those serious movie-lovers who find Some Like It Hot (movie) to be overrated. I think a lot of the comedies given high ranking status are. Tootsie is another, that and SLIH always end up in the top 10, usually at #1 and #2 "best comedy ever made", but I find it overrated. A very good movie, in the comedy category, but one I find more amusing than funny. And not all that exceptional as a movie when put against so many others. And then there's something like Sullivan's Travels which doesn't get nearly enough recognition as one of the great comedy films. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:06 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Chazwaza 11:45 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| I like "Sullivan's Travels" a lot, and it's a great comedy-drama, but I love even more Preston Sturges" "The Palm Beach Story" and "The Miracle of Morgan's Creek". The first gets you immediately with its fast-paced, rather surreal opening during the titles, and they're off, basically. "Miracle of Morgan's Creek" still is hilarious and incredible how it got made during WWII and got past the censors. Brilliantly indeed. | |
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| Sidebar: before VHS, we relied on revival houses. | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 08:56 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 08:44 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 08:25 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Seeking The Apartment back in the day, I waited for it to show up at The Circle, DC’s go-to for old movies bring revived. Always in double features. Before I moved to NYC, I recall waiting for The Apartment to surface, to see it with a high school friend also besotted with Promises, Promises. It did turn up once at a Rockville MD drive in, maybe with Some Like it Hot. I couldn’t get there. Now, source material is so readily accessible to study, we forget how dependent we were on older films being available for TV showings. You had to be home the night it was on! And revival houses, bless them. |
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| re: Sidebar: before VHS, we relied on revival houses. | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:02 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: Sidebar: before VHS, we relied on revival houses. - Delvino 08:44 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Ah, I said some of the same things in my reply above, before I saw your post. Right, I remember having to try to get home in time to see certain things, not just movies, back in the day. Fortunately for me, I grew up in NYC with its several revival houses, to which I was going from 12 or 13 or so. And sometimes not even revival houses. I think it was in 1971 that the Beekman, generally a first-run theatre, showed a summer festival of the last 10 years of New York Times 10-best films. First time I saw several films. |
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| re: Sidebar: before VHS, we relied on revival houses. | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:17 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:15 am EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: Sidebar: before VHS, we relied on revival houses. - AlanScott 09:02 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| There were network evening showing of some big films during prime time, but as Alan said before, there were possibly lots of cuts. Hell, I even remember there was in NYC a 4:30 p.m. movie that, with commercials, showed "Singin' in the Rain" in a 90 minute time slot -- they practically cut out all of Debbie Reynolds' role! I couldn't really have figured out why it was considered such a classic (other than the title number) until I saw it on the big screen at a revival house. Also, in the late show and late late shows, for the most part, most old movies were from the MGM catalogue, so Judy Garland, Gene Kelly et al. were shown. I don't recall seeing much from Fox, other than Shirley Temple movies, so no real Betty Grable/Alice Faye things (other than Faye co-starring opposite Temple in one) and none of the great Technicolor films. Universal only showed the monster films and Abbott and Costello, but no Deanna Durbin, no Irene Dunne "Show Boat" or Donald O'Connor pre-MGM films, etc. It was really a lot more limited things from various other studios until TCM started on cable. One had to go to revival houses or maybe your college film society would show it, like mine had some rarities I was chomping at the bit to see. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: portenopete 02:37 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Just watched The Apartment as a Christmas Day treat. I'd seen it a number of times but watching it yesterday I was struck by the depth and nuance of MacLaine's Fran. She's extraordinary. She really deserved that Oscar it would take another 24 years to achieve. | |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: huskyital (huskyital@yahoo.com) 06:33 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - portenopete 02:37 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| The apartment is my favorite movie of all time Shirley MacLaine is my favorite actress. When I took a cinemaclass we had to show a favorite five minute clip and analyze it to the class and I chose the scene where Shirley leaves Fred McMurray at the bar on New Year's Eve and took it to the end of the film and with that great Ferrante and Teicher score it chills me every time. I enjoyed promises promises that several times I have seen it but it is not one of my favorite musicals. | |
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| THE APARTMENT Musical Score | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:54 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - huskyital 06:33 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Adolph Deutsch composed all the original music for the film's underscore. He is also the composer of record on the film's "soundtrack" recording. However, he adapted a musical composition by Charles Williams "Jealous Lover" for the Main Title -- Theme from The Apartment. Deutsch also adapted a musical composition by Ary Macedo and Ayrton Amorim "Madalena" for his cue titled This Night. I agree that the United Artist recording of the film's underscore is excellent and has been released twice on CD, initially on the FSM label and subsequently on the Kritzerland label. Both recordings sold out quickly. Ferrante and Teicher did a recording of Theme from The Apartment and included it on one of their LPs. |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:30 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - huskyital 06:33 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| It's one of my all-time favorites. The Apartment winning best picture is one of the rare times when the Oscars got that award right. Well, my choice really would be the unnominated Psycho, perhaps my all-time favorite, but The Apartment is nearby. And obviously much more the kind of movie that might win at that time. One of the shandas that year was nominating Greer Garson for best actress (for Sunrise at Campobello) and not nominating Jean Simmons for Elmer Gantry and/or Spartacus, the latter arguably supporting. In retrospect, perhaps MacLaine was the person who should have won. She is perfect in the movie, a deeply moving performance. I think perhaps the fact that she didn't bond with Wilder as Lemmon did, that she felt a bit isolated, helped her. She admired Wilder greatly and thought he was kind, and she was very grateful to him, yet she felt that he didn’t especially like her. |
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| 1960 Oscars | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 01:35 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 01:33 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - AlanScott 07:30 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| I'm a huge Hitchcock fan. Psycho should have been nominated for Best Picture (over The Alamo), although at that time a thriller/horror film (even one that features some very dark humor) would never have been the winner. Strangely, Psycho never released a soundtrack LP, which may account for it not being nominated for Best Score. 1960 was a very strong year for original scores. While Tiomkin's The Alamo, Previn's Elmer Gantry, Gold's Exodus (the winner), and Elmer Bernstein's The Magnificent Seven were very worthy scores, I would have nominated Herrmann's Psycho over both Previn and Gold. I think the Oscar that year should have gone to Bernstein. Herrmann had a reputation for being cantankerous and (supposedly) Johnny Green hated him, so that may be another reason for the Psycho score not getting a nomination. Herrmann shortly before his death conducted the National Philharmonic Orchestra in recording the complete Psycho score. I have the CD, and it is outstanding. I agree that Jean Simmons should have been nominated for Best Actress over Greer Garson. I also think that MacLaine gave the performance of her career for The Apartment and should have won over Elizabeth Taylor. It was Taylor's 4th nomination, and she undoubtedly won more for her career as a whole rather than for the rather ordinary Butterfield 8. |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:52 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: 1960 Oscars - BroadwayTonyJ 01:33 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| I also have the Unicorn CD of Herrmann conducting the score. Some folks seem to prefer the one conducted by Joel McNeely, which I've never heard. The score seems not to have been mentioned in many reviews of the film, at least not in the reviews to which I have access. I like some of Herrman's concert works, too, particularly his only symphony. It's a work that I think would be popular with audiences if only orchestras would program it. |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: StanS 12:07 pm EST 12/28/22 | |
| In reply to: re: 1960 Oscars - AlanScott 09:52 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| For me, Herrmann is far and away the greatest film composer, nobody else even comes close. But his symphony and other concert works (again, for me) don't rise to the same level. It's an interesting comparison with Erich Wolfgang Korngold, whose film music is highly overrated but whose concert music is more compelling than Herrmann's. | |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:12 pm EST 12/28/22 | |
| In reply to: re: 1960 Oscars - StanS 12:07 pm EST 12/28/22 | |
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| Oddly, I don't know any of Korngold's concert music. I keep meaning to get to know it. | |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: BobPlak 07:20 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: 1960 Oscars - BroadwayTonyJ 01:33 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| The rise in anti-Semitism has me down, so I will take this opportunity to point out that all five nominees for the 1960 Oscar for Best Score of a Dramatic or Comedy Picture were Jewish. If Bernard Herrmann had replaced one of the five, it would have still held true. (So now the anti-Semites will say the Oscars were rigged in favor of Jews. You can't win with them!) |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: bicoastal 03:50 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: 1960 Oscars - BroadwayTonyJ 01:33 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| The Herrmann score is phenomenal and has more than stood the test of time, even over those other iconic scores. One of the great joys of my life was getting to sit in the music stage when Danny Elfman recorded the original score for the PSYCHO remake (ugh). To be on the stage with a 70 string orchestra playing that score---a total thrill! | |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:45 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: 1960 Oscars - BroadwayTonyJ 01:33 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| We've been through this before about Herrmann and the Oscars. He disdained them and none of his iconic scores were even nominated. When you say the Oscar should have gone to Bernstein, do you mean since Psycho wasn't nominated? Because I would probably put the score to Psycho in the top 10 scores of all time. Only Vertigo is even greater. |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 09:08 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:06 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: re: 1960 Oscars - StanS 03:45 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| I made two statements. Statement #1: all 5 nominees were worthy scores. Ernest Gold won for Exodus. IMO the Oscar should have gone to Elmer Bernstein for The Magnificent Seven. Statement #2: IMO the Psycho score should have been nominated instead of either Previn's Elmer Gantry or Gold's Exodus. I agree that the score for Vertigo is even greater than that of Psycho. Herrmann did receive Oscar nominations for the scores to Citizen Kane, The Devil and Daniel Webster, Anna and the King of Siam, Obsession,and Taxi Driver -- 5 iconic scores. He won the Oscar for his Devil and Daniel Webster score. He probably deserved at least 10 additional nominations for many other scores. It's very strange that the Psycho score did not receive a soundtrack LP in 1960. Apparently, the recording session primary elements were re-used, i. e., recorded over. However, the stems remained and may still exist. I believe the original soundtrack (possibly truncated) did appear briefly on CD some years ago, although probably with archival sound. I don't remember the label, most likely an import. I'm almost positive that Screen Archives was the distributor. I never bought it because I had the very comprehensive re-recording with conducting by Herrmann himself. Some day when the technology improves, the original soundtrack recording may be released again (with improved sound) by one of the more reliable boutique labels. |
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| re: 1960 Oscars | |
| Posted by: bmc 02:40 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
| In reply to: 1960 Oscars - BroadwayTonyJ 01:33 pm EST 12/27/22 | |
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| Miss Taylor herself said it was a 'hangover' award for SUDDENLY LAST SUMMER the year before(also her tracheotomy when she had pneumonia.) | |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:39 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - portenopete 02:37 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| MacLaine was terrific, but one thing her Fran has over the musical's -- lots of wonderful closeups and some great internalized acting by her as well. Plus the writing in the film is better in the dialogue scenes, certainly for her character. | |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:03 am EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - Delvino 10:45 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Very interesting, thank you. "Simon just wasn't that into her." Isn't this true of Simon in general(not always)with female characters? And maybe he just wasn't as good a writer as Wilder & Diamond? And always looking for the quick and easy laugh, sitcom style. Jokes rather than characters. |
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| Hal David's lyrics reflect the show's (gendered) view. | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 12:07 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 12:01 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - larry13 11:03 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| Chuck's songs are about his career trajectory and workplace bargains ("Half as Big as Life," "Our Little Secret," the title tune), the frustrations of his moral compromises ("Upstairs") and the existential reality of Christmas Eve alone ("A Fact Can Be a Beautiful Thing.") "She Likes Basketball," a showstopper, is his romantic yearning. Sheldrake, the womanizer, was given "Wanting Things," a mildly reflective examination of privilege -- "things" includes women in the workplace -- that stops short of revelation. Not a great number, today it does feel the closest to deepening the Apartment's character. He almost sees his predation for what it is. Fran's songs, two duets with Chuck, are all niche variations of romantic regret: "Knowing When to Leave," about falling for a louse and unable to exit; "Whoever You Are, I Love You," a pre-suicide realization that life isn't worth living without the (wrong) man. Her I Want duet "You'll Think of Someone" is about needing a hobby that will attract a partner ("I could take up tennis/to relax me a game of doubles wouldn't tax me/ but I just don't know who my partner should be.") "I'll Never Fall in Love Again," the show's standalone hit, is the closest to the MacLaine character's rue. Yet again, another song about romantic mistakes. Only a few years after the heroine of How to Succeed sang "Happy to Keep His Supper Warm" a single urban woman had no career or educations plans beyond snagging a better guy. Interestingly, Promises opened opposite Hair's ascendance, in which O'Hara had played the impassioned Sheila at the Public. Promises arrived on the cusp of a new era, the summer of 1969 a transition for the nation. It was set in the present (unlike the revival) and aimed to accurately reflect urban life: the great dancer and director, Baayork Lee, aside, straight white people in a very narrow work environment. The Apartment, filmed 8 years earlier, now seems far more brutal in its critique of the hypocrisy in corporate culture. |
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| re: Hal David's lyrics reflect the show's (gendered) view. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:47 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: Hal David's lyrics reflect the show's (gendered) view. - Delvino 12:01 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
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| "I'll Never Fall in Love Again," the show's standalone hit, is the closest to the MacLaine character's rue. And it becomes a pointedly awkward, bittersweet song for Chuck, who gets to use the song to comment on this whole complicated situation with Fran (who still has no idea that he's in love with her). |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: claploudly 11:55 am EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - larry13 11:03 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| But I think you are overlooking Lost in Yonkers for which Mercedes Ruhl won a Tony for her performance. Jane Kaczmarek is a Yale MFA graduate in the same graudating class with Kate Burton, Frances McDormand, and Angela Bassett I believe. Many people think of her as a more comedic actress because of her success in tv's Malcolm in the Middle. But when she replaced Ms Ruhl, the NY Times wrote a half page article with large photo of Ms. Kaczmarek about how often the replacements give a better performance that the original actor and make the play worth seeing again. Kaczmarek has gone on to play many other lead dramatic roles in such heavy-hitters as Long Day's Journey into Night, etc. | |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Posted by: larry13 12:16 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - claploudly 11:55 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| I'm definitely NOT overlooking LOST which I thought(yes, minority opinion)vastly overrated, possibly because Simon WAS writing about women and not exactly as he had written earlier. I didn't believe ANYthing in the play; only Irene Worth created a real human being. I don't blame Ruehl or any of the other actors.(Worth was a genius.) | |
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| re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 12:16 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 12:05 pm EST 12/26/22 | |
| In reply to: re: The Apartment vs Promises, Promises (longish). - claploudly 11:55 am EST 12/26/22 | |
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| And a failure has two of his most complex characters: The Gingerbread Lady. In adapting, I think Simon and Hal David were blind to how a male privilege-dominated story denied Fran much agency beyond tragic romantic yearning. Yes, the songs do the heavy lifting in a musical, but as per my post above, Fran wanted nothing but a better (unmarried) man. A boomer perspective, since boomers are sometimes blamed for being clueless and feckless: In 1968, when I was 17 and my ambitious female classmates were applying to top schools, somewhat startling. Am I overthinking this, in the thread? Maybe. But I always think musical comedies set in the present (see Company, etc.) are compelling windows into were we are as a society, and gender is ever an interesting prism. |
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