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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:45 pm EDT 04/11/23 | |
| In reply to: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - ryhog 11:34 pm EDT 04/11/23 | |
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| I think the rule only makes sense in the context in which it was created, which was the two Sam Shepards and then Fortune’s Fool (I think it was), juxtaposed with “Not About Nightingales”. The rule became a somewhat official way of saying that plays that took 20+ years to come to Broadway after becoming widely produced - and generally in brand new productions - were no longer to be seen as new, especially in an era when most Off-Broadway plays transferred in the same season. Now that we’re in an era where Off-Broadway plays are routinely taking many years to come to Broadway - and sometimes getting re-tooled out of town - the rules get fuzzier to parse. So while I agree that a lot of the logic in this thread is faulty, the way it’s being debated is true to the reasoning behind the rule. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:10 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - Singapore/Fling 11:45 pm EDT 04/11/23 | |
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| I am having trouble understanding how the debate here relates to the reasoning behind the rule. I know the context. Fool was too old to be new and the Shepard plays were to popular to be new, but all were deemed new. I don't feel Nightingale has a place in this because it had never been produced until a year or two before it appeared on Broadway, and the previous mountings (London and Houston) were a part of a single production spearheaded by Vanessa Redgrave. Riverside was, as I said, clearly not a classic or historical play, and (now that I have looked quickly) does not appear to have been (in your words) "widely produced" in the interim decade or so. To me, the "context" does not provide a hook on which to hang Riverside and thus there is no rational basis for treating it as ineligible as a new play. (Thus, I point out, we don't disagree on the ultimate point.) But I don't see how this conclusion is in anyway informed by the people in the two shows, the amount of time that has past, etc. The bottom line is that the show has not been widely produced in the context of [the context you describe.] Note to Dramedy (since I feel confident you [S/F] would not dispute this): the appropriate metric is not wikipedia but the TCG data published in American Theatre. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: oddone 01:30 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - ryhog 01:10 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| I think we all agree that "widely produced" is, at least to some extent, open to interpretation / up for debate. There is no specific number of productions as to what constitutes a play being "widely produced." I think the Tonys are intentionally vague here, to leave the TAC wiggle room to act on a case-by-case basis. While it's true that a Broadway production's similarity to a previous Off Broadway production is not explicitly mentioned in the rule about New vs. Revival, I have to believe it's a factor, or at the very least would be something producers would point to when arguing for the play (and thus the playwright) to be eligible as a new play. (Interestingly, Ohio State Murders is eligible as a Revival, BUT Adrienne Kennedy will also be eligible as playwright, so I guess you can have both.) If you as a Producer can make the point that your production is akin to a "transfer" (because it's more or less the same as an Off Bway production, with the same cast and creatives, no matter how long ago that same Off Bway production was), it would seem to me you'd sidestep those considerations about whether or not the play has been "widely produced" in the interim. Again, I could be wrong. And I understand the term "transfer" isn't in the rules per se. But given that this is how Broadway "works" now - where a show can have a decent life around the country before finally getting to Broadway - being able to argue this would seem to shore up your claim for a play being "New." Basically, we agree that Producers petition the TAC to consider an actor as Lead/Featured, and presumably, there are times they are successful, and other times they are not. Aside from billing, there is no hard and fast rule about what is a "Lead" role - Producers make a case, presumably drawing in as many facts as they think will help. I suspect the same is the case here - even if there is no explicit "rule" about a show being like a "transfer," I'd bet it would be a point producers would mention in making their case one way or the other. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:32 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - oddone 01:30 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| I think you are significantly overestimating the committee's deliberations. And although I agree it's case by case, I do not see a reasonable argument that Riverside is a part of the contemporary repertoire with so few productions. A couple of other things to mention: First, the method a producer uses to create the "default" differs for the revival vs original designation and the lead vs. supporting question. In the former case, the declaration is a part of the registration, not the opening night credits. Second, the committee can "administer" on its own. No petition is needed. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: oddone 12:02 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - ryhog 10:32 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| You’re probably right that I’m overestimating their deliberations. Fair. But I’m not the committee so I can only guess as to what their “sole discretion” is. Here’s the main clause from the rules: A play or musical that is determined by the Tony Awards Administration Committee (in its sole discretion) to be a “classic” or in the historical or popular repertoire shall not be eligible for an Award in the Best Play or Best Musical category… That “sole discretion” phrase is the wiggle room I had mentioned. I have no way of knowing what they will do. I also don’t have access to the producer’s petition, or to their registration. (Re new/revival vs acting categories - I understand these determinations come from different things. But we only have access to opening night credits, and that’s the only thing mentioned in the TAC’s press releases). But I do have access to the fact that a production is more or less the same as a somewhat recent Off Bway one. That suggests the producers would be positioning the show as a new play, and thus how it would be framed on any petition/registration. And I know no petition is needed. Basically, I’m using this kind of info as a proxy for info I don’t have. “Popular repertoire” is so vague as to be almost pointless. One other thing to point out - in Revival land, a recent NY production (borough of Manhattan) can make the Revival ineligible. It’s only a 3-year window, but it’s why the rights to perform many shows are just not available to companies in Manhattan. Even if no Broadway production is on the calendar. You’re probably going to say I’m trying to compare apples and oranges. I only bring it up to say that with Revivals, a recent production is a negative. But with New Plays, it’s not a problem at all. (And yes, I understand the ‘New Play or not’ question is decided first, and then the ‘eligible for Revival’ question is decided second). And yes, Atlantic’s production was over three years ago, so it doesn’t matter anyway. But to my mind, if I see there was a substantial NY production that is markedly similar to the Broadway production, of a play that was never on Broadway until now, that’s a good sign it will be in the New Play category. I don’t bother trying to parse if it’s in the popular repertoire or not, because that’s so fuzzy. I know it isn’t determinative and it’s possible the producers don’t even bother mentioning it. But especially in this case (it’s pretty much the exact same production as the one at the Atlantic), it is a much easier way to think about it than trying to figure out how many other productions there have been and whatnot. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:43 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - oddone 12:02 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| Yes there is wiggle room in some elements and yes you can make guesses (with which I or others might disagree). I think I'll just leave it as that. One thing that it seems you might not be aware of is that you DO have access to (at least this part of) the registration: it is listed in ibdb.com. | |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: oddone 12:57 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - ryhog 12:43 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| Thanks for ibdb.com. I've used it before but I was never clear where the info was coming from. If they are taking info from the show's registration, that's helpful to know. I checked Ohio State Murders on ibdb.com, and that is listed as "Play" and "Original." So I guess the producers registered it as a new play? Or was this just how ibdb decided to categorize it (since it's the first entry for that piece)? It sounds like you're saying that "Original" tag is a reflection of the show's registration? In any case, the Administration Committee deemed it a Revival. Which makes sense to me. It feels more "historical/popular repertoire." It was first done in 1991, even though it wasn't done in NY until 2007. And that was a much different production than this one. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:26 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - oddone 12:57 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| ibdb is part of the league so the info is coming from the league which gets it off of the registration. Caveat is that one can change the registration details, up to a point. | |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: oddone 01:49 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - ryhog 01:26 pm EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| Good to know. I see the League's logo and association are there, but it's helpful to know the path for the information - where it comes from, etc. That's sort of hinted at with "official source" and "title page information," but it isn't spelled out explicitly. I also remember when ibdb looked a lot less professional than it does now. Which of course is not indicative of the accuracy of the information. |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Posted by: Revned 02:14 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - oddone 01:30 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| Regarding your comment: "Interestingly, Ohio State Murders is eligible as a Revival, BUT Adrienne Kennedy will also be eligible as playwright, so I guess you can have both." I'm not sure what you mean by that. Awards are given for Best Play and Best Revival of a Play, but there's not a separate award for Best Playwright. It's not unheard-of for the Best Revival of a Play award to go to a production of a play by a living writer (it happened last year with Take Me Out) but officially the award is presented to the producer. |
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| I'm just repeating what the Administration Committee decided... | |
| Last Edit: oddone 02:45 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| Posted by: oddone 02:40 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - Revned 02:14 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| I'm well aware of the precedent and who normally gets the Tony for a Play Revival. That's why I said "Interestingly." I didn't make this up - I'm just repeating what the Administration Committee decided: "Ohio State Murders will be considered eligible in the Best Revival of a Play category. Adrienne Kennedy will be considered eligible as author." For whatever reason (presumably because she wasn't eligible for a Tony before for this play), if Ohio State Murders wins Best Revival, Adrienne Kennedy will share that award with the Producers. (And to my points elsewhere on this thread - this is not the norm, thus is the reason they mention it explicitly. For all other revivals, the author(s) don't share the award.) |
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| re: I'm just repeating what the Administration Committee decided... | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 08:32 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: I'm just repeating what the Administration Committee decided... - oddone 02:40 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| There was a tweak to the play revival rules several years back, giving the award to the author in addition to the producers in certain situations. (I don't remember the exact details and don't have time to check right now...but something like the author's alive and the play hasn't been on Broadway before...maybe after Larry Kramer wasn't actually included in the award for The Normal Heart? Or so that he would be?) | |
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| re: I'm just repeating what the Administration Committee decided... | |
| Posted by: oddone 11:07 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm just repeating what the Administration Committee decided... - sirpupnyc 08:32 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
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| Thank you! Now that you mention this it’s coming back to me that this rule had changed. And yes- you’re right. I looked it up and the playwright can’t have been Tony-eligible before, and also must be alive. | |
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| re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread | |
| Last Edit: oddone 12:35 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| Posted by: oddone 12:25 am EDT 04/12/23 | |
| In reply to: re: There is a rule, and that rule doesn't really speak to most of what is being discussed in this thread - Singapore/Fling 11:45 pm EDT 04/11/23 | |
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| I agree with this. And yes- while there are clear rules, one can always argue for varying interpretations of these rules. It's one reason why I wasn't 100% sure how the committee would consider Between Riverside and Crazy, until they decided. I was pretty sure it would be deemed a New Play, but not positive. But what IS clear is that the Administration Committee HAS decided. If a play hasn't been on Broadway, it's by default a new play, unless they say otherwise. They didn't, so it's a new play. |
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