Threaded Order Chronological Order
| HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Something that has been going around the Broadway musician community for weeks now, but may or may not have filtered up to the theater community at large is that the new production of Here Lies Love at the Broadway Theater will be performed without any live musicians. The entire show is tracked. Maybe they are using the tracks that were created for the off-Broadway production. The union has been working behind the scenes for months to try and get the producers to live up to their end of the CBA with regards to the theater minimums (19 for the Broadway), or come to an agreement on a special situations plan that would use at least some musicians, but are having no luck as of yet. Ironically, one of the major proponents of using the recordings is David Byrne himself, who made such a huge deal of having all of the music in American Utopia performed live on stage. I believe Local 802 is currently weighing if and when to make a larger public stink about the negotiations. My question to this board is: would anyone care? |
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| That's Show Biz, kids. | |
| Posted by: NYtheatreMAN 12:13 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I have read this entire thread and it's almost entertaining how there are three wildly different conversations unfolding and I think that demonstrates the REAL struggle here. A good number of posters are arguing entirely for the "show".. artistic choice and artistic intent, screw the CBA agreements and house minimums, etc etc etc. A good number of posters are arguing entirely for the "business".. CBA agreements and house minimums are all that matter, screw the artistic intent, etc etc etc Both sides are correct and neither side wants to hear the other. A minority of posters are talking "show business, where these two competing interests have to interact and satisfy their valid and necessary needs. At the end of the day, both sides have dropped the ball here and it should not have progressed to this point in the process, let alone come to public light NOW. An agreement is possible, there are several rough frameworks in existing CBA that can be adapted to handle this, and neither side should walk out of this situation happy and, honestly do not deserve to. And can we please stop the rhetoric of "if this happens no show will ever have a live orchestra again"? I can't think of any functional producing entity that sees a fully recorded score as ideal or wanted and when we had this debate during previous negotiations and several shows tried it, no one liked the result. The technology has progressed significantly and is a wonderful sweetener where necessary but it never captures live musicianship. Even in London, that does not share our musician minimums in houses, they have not tossed out live musicians. (Yes, I know Phantom has 14 there now, which would never fly here, but their crew numbers are also smaller and flexible across the pond..) |
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| re: That's Show Biz, kids. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:06 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: That's Show Biz, kids. - NYtheatreMAN 12:13 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| Yes, I know Phantom has 14 there now, which would never fly here, but their crew numbers are also smaller and flexible across the pond. What do you mean "it would never fly here?" We will absolutely be seeing that production here before long. Just like the reduced Les Miz revival and the reduced Cats revival. And we'll complain about it, and yet it will still run. Probably with more expensive ticket prices. THAT is show biz. |
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| re: That's Show Biz, kids. | |
| Posted by: NYtheatreMAN 10:19 am EDT 05/28/23 | |
| In reply to: re: That's Show Biz, kids. - Chromolume 10:06 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| You are correct that we will see that physical production here before long. The orchestration that they use in London now would be tenable in a Broadway house under 802's CBA so I think we will end up seeing it with a slightly larger / adapted orchestration. Even when Les Miz was playing in NYC and London, we NEVER saw it with the drastically orchestrations that were being used in London on the same staging. | |
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| re: That's Show Biz, kids. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:27 pm EDT 05/28/23 | |
| In reply to: re: That's Show Biz, kids. - NYtheatreMAN 10:19 am EDT 05/28/23 | |
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| But we did get the cut-in-half Cats orchestration - unless that too was smaller in London. | |
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| re: That's Show Biz, kids. | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 04:16 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: That's Show Biz, kids. - NYtheatreMAN 12:13 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| I don't think I've seen any posts on this thread saying the producers should be exempt from paying whatever minimum number of musicians are required to be paid. Just favoring that the way the music is presented be the decision of the authors. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 09:15 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Looks to me like all the money is going into the immersive set and the massive transformation of the Broadway Theatre. | |
| Link | HERE LIVES LOVE theatre transformation |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 11:29 am EDT 05/27/23 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:28 am EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - pecansforall 09:15 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I just want to note, before this thread sunsets, how far afield it has gotten. However we might individually resolve the artistic/economic issues, the fact remains that none of this overcomes the FACT that the contract requires a minimum orchestra size and that requirement does not have an exception for artistic choice (either in spending the money on something else or not using live music). The only way to avoid breaching the contract is to petition for a concession. There is a committee provided for to make decisions based on artistic considerations. We can have fun arguing about what is or should be required, but that is not the pertinent question unless and until we learn that the production has asked for a reduction. Otherwise, as I said a long time ago, the CBA is the applicable minimum. There is no provision for unilateral action by a producer. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: student_rush 12:05 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - ryhog 11:28 am EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| No argument here -- the HLL producers should absolutely have known this was going to be an issue, so it would be odd if their running costs didn't account for mandatory minimums at all. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:27 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - pecansforall 09:15 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| North Shore Music Theatre created a big controversy when, in the early 90's, they opted for a virtual orchestra for Carousel so they could spend much more money on a huge onstage carousel. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: dreamawakening 11:53 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Maybe someone who works in production can address my thoughts - The second this show was announced all the unions knew what was coming their way. In the case of musicians, they knew what wasn't coming their way. I can't imagine some sort of deal wasn't arranged long ago. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 04:46 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - dreamawakening 11:53 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| No deal has been reached, and the Union has been working on it for months. | |
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| Priscilla Queen of the Desert - The Musical | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 08:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| How was the issue resolved back in 2011 with Priscilla? | |
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| re: Priscilla Queen of the Desert - The Musical | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 11:00 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: Priscilla Queen of the Desert - The Musical - pecansforall 08:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I believe they hired some additional musicians but still ended up below the minimum. It was a compromise. | |
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| CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 04:16 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I would assume that the concept of Here Lies Love is somewhat similar to that of Contact. As far as I know, audiences did not object to the tracked music used in the Off-Broadway production. My partner and I were blown away by Here Lies Love at the Public, one of the best original musicals we had ever seen off-Broadway. I listen to the cast recording all the time. Of course, just IMO. | |
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| Forgive me if this was answered elsewhere - did CONTACT pay musicians weekly who never played? | |
| Posted by: MeredithChandler1973 09:42 am EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - BroadwayTonyJ 04:16 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| This thread has gotten very long, so I apologize if I missed this part of the discussion elsewhere. If I understand correctly, there are certain musician minimums in Broadway houses. If a show doesn't need that many musicians, they'd still be required to hire that many unless there was some sort of special agreement to allow less. The expectation would be that HERE LIES LOVE will need to pay (some) musicians weekly whether or not they plan to use them as live music in the show. That would certainly be a very expensive prospect if HLL did not take that into account, but it simply boggles my mind that no one thought there would have to be some costs for musicians for this show!!! Are insiders somehow aware that the show is trying not to employ any musicians at all? Are the negotiations about trying to minimize the amount of musicians that are paid each week (since they aren't actually playing)? {Generally excited about HLL, but this aspect has me scratching my head} |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:18 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - BroadwayTonyJ 04:16 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| CONTACT wasn't a traditional musical. It was a dance play and there was no score. Doesn't Hear Lies Love have a score? I know I could look it up but then what good is ATC? I emjoy the conversation. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 04:22 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - KingSpeed 04:18 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Here Lies Love has an original score that's written to be performed as karaoke. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:51 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - Michael_212 04:22 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Do they protect the words? What makes it karaoke? | |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 03:10 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - Singapore/Fling 06:51 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:04 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - Michael_212 03:10 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Others have gone into more detail below, but the question is what makes this karaoke, rather than people singing to pre-recorded background tracks, especially since the songs are original, rather than iconic pop songs. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Last Edit: Michael_212 05:22 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 05:19 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - Singapore/Fling 05:04 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| The show (as it was played at The Public) begins with a DJ, who is visible to the audience throughout the show, welcoming the audience to a karaoke nightclub and explains that karaoke was invented in The Philippines. Imelda Marcos was known for enjoying nightclubs and the show presents her and the other characters as performing karaoke. Many of the songs are staged with the performers holding microphones as if they're performing in a karaoke club. There is hardly any spoken dialogue in the show. The story is conveyed through projections and lyrics and the cast just goes from song to song, with staging that indicates that they and the audience are in a club. This is not simply deciding to use recorded music to save money. Using karaoke is a dramatic element of the storytelling. | |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:50 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - Michael_212 05:19 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| DJs, famously, not usually a part of karaoke. To be true to karaoke, they should really stage it in a small private room, or even better, with an at-home machine and a small TV. I think the show sounds fabulous, but what I’m getting is through-composed dance club musical with handheld microphones, not karaoke. |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:38 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - Michael_212 05:19 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I have not seen the show. But what you're describing does not to my mind make the use of live musicians, should that happen, sound like it would be a problem. The setup is explicit, as you describe it. The audience can suspend disbelief easily enough. And if the creative team is super-concerned that the presence of a visible live orchestra would so upset or confuse the audience as to create a violation of the show's setup, put them upstage or in a room somewhere. Or just cover the pit. Honestly, I think the advantages of a live orchestra in any live performance of a musical would outweigh what seems to me a questionable artistic choice even given the show's setup regarding karaoke. |
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| re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:17 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: CONTACT -- Didn't CONTACT use recorded music? - AlanScott 05:38 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I would also note that Disney's On The Record used a live orchestra, even though with the show taking place in a recording studio, the singers could easily have been dubbing their voices onto to pre-recorded tracks, as happens in the industry. But Disney avoided that. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: mdcoz 04:04 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I have not seen the show, but based on what I've read no musicians serves the show well. That said - they contract with the musicians union should be honored and some deal should be arbitrated.... | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:45 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - mdcoz 04:04 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| There could have and should have been a deal struck before the show was announced. This is on the producer and the general manager if, as it appears, they did not, and unlike some shows, in this case the people involved know better than this. The union has its contract and it is very clear. This show has music and lyrics; it even has a musical director. No show has to use live musicians but the contract has a minimum and if some concession is not negotiated that is the price tag to the production. I would guess that the show's budget would blow up to the point of cancellation if the union sticks to its guns. What will they do? I would venture to say that even if they get a deal now it is gonna cost Mr. Luftig et al more than a pre-negotiated deal, maybe a lot more. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 06:45 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - ryhog 04:45 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I agree 100%. The producers should have negotiated this with AFM long before now. The Public knows better as well. What fascinates me is that this Broadway transfer was announced quite a while ago. AFM knows very well there were no musicians off Broadway, as AFM has no contract with the Off Broadway League. Although many musicals start at the Public with AFM bands, AFM made no comment, as I recall, that HERE LIES LOVE at the Public was performed to tracks. And they certainly had no grounds to object at that time - and they didn't. But when the Broadway transfer was announced they surely should have contacted Mr Luftig immediately to discuss how the production was going to be done, considering the AFM/Broadway League CBA. V(d) in the AFM CBA with Broadway is clear that if a producer needs to ask for any variance from the minimum number of musicians required in the theatre they are going to play in (19 musicians at the Broadway). The Producer is required to make application for a variance at the time that they contract/announce the theatre they will be playing in. It seems that this likely was not done. There is a lot of language about criteria for having a smaller orchestra approved - but all of these rules rely on a live orchestra of some size being in the show. Rule XIV allows recorded music (tracks) to be used, as long as the minimum size orchestra has been hired. As a sidelight, using recorded music (tracks) in rehearsals is not allowed either. It seems the only way that this can be settled, without setting a precedent that AFM would not want, would be to come up with a number of musicians, (less than 19) that the producers would have to hire and pay for the run (walkers)- along with at least a rehearsal pianist, even if not used, for rehearsals. One qualifier could be determining how many musicians play on the tracks, and requiring that number, up to 19, to be hired for the production We dont have all the facts as yet - but if Mr Luftig and his team did not apply for a variance fairly soon after they announced the production, and still haven't, they have violated the spirit if not the letter of the CBA. if AFM doesn't hold strong on this, the Union Security on the CBA would be in tatters. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:03 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - NewtonUK 06:45 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| The majority of songs on the 2016 HERE LIES LOVE album utilized 16-19 musicians. Some used less. Of course the score can be played live just as effectively as using tracks. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:04 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - NewtonUK 07:03 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I agree with 95% of what you wrote, up to the last sentence. As I discussed in another post or 2, the score cannot be played as effectively because the result would be raw music whereas the whole idea of karaoke is that the person is singing to the recorded, fully produced tracks. I do not think using live music is ever going to happen except at the very end of the show. Not to over-dwell but there is a reasonable number that would have been agreed to in the NORMAL course of things. It is obvious that the show has not been budgeted with 16-19 musicians and I think imposing that would shut the show down before it starts. Of course, if the production moves forward without an agreement, it will also be shut down by a picket line. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - ryhog 11:04 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I’m just not clear on what can be done on the recording studio that can’t be done live, considering the sophistication of computers these days. And karaoke’s starting point is people singing famous pop songs while videos with the words play as they sing, which does not seem to be what’s happening here. Rather, we have a conceptual hook of “Filipinos love karaoke” that launches an original score of club music. |
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| SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: sondheimobsessed7090 01:04 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Hey jumping in here to clarify since no one whose seen it seems to have explained this here - The reason they need to be tracks is because there's a total stripping down of the karaoke club at the end as a symbol of the protest that ended the regime. And at that moment three cast members step in and ask as a small acoustic band, and play live instruments and sing a song in which the lyrics contain verbatim accounts of that protest; So having live instruments for the show up to that moment would entirely take away the integrity of that theatrical conceit - and limit the metaphorical symbolism of that moment - the tracks rather than real instruments demonstrating the overproduced, fake, corrupt, uncaring energy of the Marcos regime in contrast with what feels like a small live indie band, to represent the on the ground, regular people, protesters who just want to live in a free country. What I am confused about in this thread (and I haven't seen the social media posts, so maybe I'm missing something! ) is that I haven't seen any statement from AFM about this or an indication that the deal wasn't actually already made. Bonnie |
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| re: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:18 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:15 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - sondheimobsessed7090 01:04 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| The reason they need to be tracks is because there's a total stripping down of the karaoke club at the end as a symbol of the protest that ended the regime. And at that moment three cast members step in and ask as a small acoustic band, and play live instruments and sing a song in which the lyrics contain verbatim accounts of that protest; So having live instruments for the show up to that moment would entirely take away the integrity of that theatrical conceit - and limit the metaphorical symbolism of that moment - the tracks rather than real instruments demonstrating the overproduced, fake, corrupt, uncaring energy of the Marcos regime in contrast with what feels like a small live indie band, to represent the on the ground, regular people, protesters who just want to live in a free country. Thank you. That's all very very literal. But we're talking about theatre, not reality. Suspension of disbelief and all that. Viscerally speaking, an unseen orchestra would still provide the same exact effect. The actors are playing characters, they are wearing costumes, they are lit by theatre lights on a designed theatrical set, etc - but we aren't supposed to be thinking about that as we watch. In the same exact way, a live orchestra could easily provide the music that the karaoke machine would reproduce in the story. And when a few of the actors later "step in and act as a small acoustic band," they would still be doing something we hadn't yet seen in the show - onstage music performed by the actors. And, because most of us are used to, and expect, live musicians, we wouldn't question the conceit. I doubt anyone would walk out of the production with a live orchestra complaining that it shouldn't have had a live orchestra. I guarantee you. It's just like seeing the wires when Peter Pan flies. It's part of a theatrical conceit. In your literal world, Peter would have to actually levitate on his own. |
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| re: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:28 am EDT 05/28/23 | |
| In reply to: re: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Chromolume 10:15 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| With the understanding (that I have expressed elsewhere in this thread that all of this is a tangent to the only pending issue (viz., that this show cannot go forward without some number of 802 musicians), and with respect, I feel something has blinded you to the actual situation here. This is not about suspension of belief, it is about storytelling. I am guessing you have not seen the show, but having live musicians playing unproduced karaoke tracks does not "provide the exact same effect" for the same reason that recorded and produced music in a typical musical doesn't. (You did land on one obvious aspect of the resolution: as I mentioned previously, the players at the end of the show will obviously need to be or become AFM members and that constitutes a base on which an agreement can be reached. That's non-negotiable.) It's not like this show has no track record. It was done downtown for several months and was nominated for and won a ton of awards as well as being very well reviewed. No one complained that they were "used to, and expect[ed] live musicians." The only thing that has changed here is the venue. Whether people would walk out is a bizarre criteria. Most of us don't walk out of shows even when we intensely dislike them. I think we have beaten this into the ground but to me there is no question that there is not going to be a live orchestra playing the karaoke tracks. And I am pretty sure 802 is not going to demand 19 walkers or anywhere near that. I hope we can all refocus on the actual issue because this one isn't as much fun anymore. :-) |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:43 am EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| At this stage, I think I will just agree that you are "not clear on what can be done on the recording studio that can’t be done live" and leave it at that. I think I have a clearer understanding on that but it is not worth belaboring the point, especially because it is really beside the point, just a sidebar really to what needs to be unraveled on the substance of where things stand between the union and the producer. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:18 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| we have a conceptual hook of “Filipinos love karaoke” And, does that even send the right message? |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:58 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Chromolume 09:18 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I think it’s neither conceptually sound nor culturally competent, and it sends me a lot of warning sounds about how the show will understand and interpret Filipino culture. | |
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| This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 03:56 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| The show is styled as a night in a karaoke club. To use live musician would go against what's in the script. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:47 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 03:56 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Question - is this "artistic choice" specifically and clearly stated by the authors, in so many words? | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 05:34 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Chromolume 11:47 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I Googled and couldn't find a direct quote about it, but my experience seeing the show at The Public is that the authors were putting the audience into a dance club where the characters had pretty much no dialogue with each other. They just sang songs, mostly into handheld mics. Creating a disco nightclub experience including recorded music was the obvious intention. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:08 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 05:34 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I hear you, but I'm not sold. What would The Drowsy Chaperone have been in such a "realistic" rendering. Just Man In Chair and a record player, with tracked music. And it would have been awful. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 12:09 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Chromolume 09:08 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I would think The Drowsy Chaperone might have been lip-synced with a period-sounding recording, which might have been interesting. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:44 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 12:09 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| No, that would have been awful. And as un-theatrical as you can get. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:23 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 03:56 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| We readily accept a live orchestra, in most shows, as being outside of the "world of the play," providing accompaniment for the show but not being part of the characters' literal world. So I entirely disagree with your premise. A live orchestra could still function as the accompaniment for karaoke. Have you ever thought about where the accompaniment is for the Von Trapp kids singing "So Long Farewell" at the party? (Let alone the Landler that everyone is dancing to?) I mean, it's not a cappella. We accept there's something there, represented by the live orchestra. No reason why karaoke couldn't be done the same way. And I can think of at least one example where it's been done. In the song "I Chose Right" from Baby, Danny sings to his own accompaniment. He plays the chords for the verse on his portable mini-keyboard, and then he starts a tape recorder, which has the track for the refrain. But we don't hear it on tape - we hear the live orchestra playing as if it were what Danny had recorded. There are also numbers where the live orchestra becomes an enhanced version of what starts as, say, piano onstage. "Once You Lose Your Heart" from Me and My Girl and "Autumn" from Titanic are two good examples. We accept the orchestra joining in even though they are not literally part of the scene. So - nope, I don't buy it. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:35 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Chromolume 10:23 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| We can go back at least as far as "Bill" in Show Boat for a song that starts with onstage piano accompaniment and then the orchestra joins in. Kern and Hammerstein repeated this two years later with "Why Was I Born?" in Sweet Adeline. And a much later example is "Unworthy of Your Love" in at least some productions of Assassins. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:55 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:52 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - AlanScott 10:35 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Though "Unworthy" would begin with guitar, of course. As does "I'll Never Fall In Love Again" from Promises, Promises. "Everything Else" from Next To Normal also starts as solo piano, with the orchestra joining in later - though we're to understand the conceit that Natalie is playing by herself the whole time. And, one of the greatest examples, IMO - "The Piano Lesson" from The Music Man, where Amaryllis' exercise not only wonderfully becomes the melody for the mother/daughter argument, but is enhanced by orchestra as well - but of course, Amaryllis is "playing solo" the whole time. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 03:12 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Chromolume 10:52 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| And yet, with all these precedents, the authors still decided to write their show the way they felt was best. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:39 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:38 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 03:12 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I can only speak for myself. I worked on a tracked show recently - a show that the authors wrote that way because they felt it was best. It was a horrible experience. I won't do something like that again. Nor would I have any desire to see or support another show done that way. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:20 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 03:12 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Yes. Understanding that a live orchestra was required, thats the baseline. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: SCH 03:56 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - NewtonUK 07:20 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| It is not true that a live orchestra is required. The contract requires that musicians be employed and paid, not that they perform. There is no conflict between the artistic decision to use prerecorded tracks (which I think is a totally valid artistic choice for this show) and the requirement to hire and employ a minimum number of musicians. Whether or not that was budgeted for is another question, and one that the producers should have known to address ahead of time. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 05:20 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - SCH 03:56 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I agree with you totally. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 07:23 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 03:56 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| No one is stopping them from doing a DJ-driven sing-a-long show, but that is not a Broadway musical and they should have found another venue. Anyone who has seen Hamilton, Six, And Juliet, or any number of other shows has heard live musicians nailing every conceivable style of music. The “concept” of the show is not a valid argument. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:32 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - selmerboy 07:23 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I am gathering you have not seen this or you would not be making this comparison. As I wrote elsewhere, it is not about the style of music; it is about the ability to deliver what would be expected, which is recorded music. This is an issue about the labor contract and whether an acceptable resolution can be effected so that the production can go forward. That's it. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:19 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 03:56 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Can't live musicians create that sound? They wouldn't have to be traditional instruments. | |
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| re: Here is the orchestra list from the 2016 recording of the title track from HERE LIES LOVE + 1: Live Musicians played these 'tracks' | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:26 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - KingSpeed 04:19 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Orchestrations by Tony Finno Guitar Synth Bass Keyboards Violins (4) Viola Cello Trumpet French horn Trombone Clarinet Flute/Oboe (double) 14 musicians THE ROSE OF TACLOBAN Orchestrations by Gil Goldtsein & Tony Finno Upright bass (loop) Toy piano Percussion Rhodes Piano Violins (4) Violas (2) Cellos (2) Trumpets (2) Frenc Horns (2) Clarinet Flute.Oboe (double) Euphonium 19 musicians |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Last Edit: Michael_212 04:27 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 04:23 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - KingSpeed 04:19 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I have no idea, but I would trust the authors to have their show performed as they want it. If they're using the same script that was used at The Public, I think using live musicians would require changing the DJ's opening presentation about the importance of karaoke in the Phillipines. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:57 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Michael_212 04:23 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| If the line musicians are not seen by the audience, their playing would in no way affect the immersion of the karaoke club. We get into dangerous territory when wet insist that authorial intent can override union rules and compensation to workers. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:28 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 06:57 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I agree that authorial intent is a slippery slope but I also think that up front AFM would have been amenable to a reasonable deal here as they have been elsewhere. The fact is an orchestra cannot play a fully produced karaoke track and what we would have would be something that doesn't sound right. And I don't think that karaoke figures in any kind of a Broadway precedent. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:31 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - ryhog 07:28 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I don’t quite understand what “karaoke” has to do with it. Karaoke is just pop music with the vocals taken out. I can understand the argument that we are in the era of electronic music and that can be tough to do live, but K-Pop lived in that idiom - was it a prerecorded show? | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:27 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 07:31 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Both you and student rush are carrying on an argument sitting largely outside the reality of the issue here. (I commend to you my post below in response to theirs to you.) Writers (who negotiate individually rather than through a union, as I am sure you know) do not conventionally control things like this and I doubt the contract here is otherwise. Your "student" confounds their personal preferences with what is "required." But AFM is not as hardcore or non-negotiable as you seem to think. Notwithstanding the contract minimums they have been very amenable to negotiating appropriate reductions. And in this case you cannot really compare HLL and K-Pop. In HLL, the karaoke tracks are fully produced (as are all tracks on almost all recordings), not raw recordings and that is what would be expected. K-Pop, by contrast, is live music. The fact that it is electronic, or not, is irrelevant. When one attends a live music concert, one expects (with limited exceptions) live music that, like live theatre, is never exactly the same twice. As I said before, my guess is that this will be worked out but at a higher price to the production. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 11:12 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - ryhog 09:27 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Sorry, but your argument about live music vs recorded tracks is just silly. I do think that we agree that this is largely, perhaps solely, a financial decision on the part of the producers. I also agree that a compromise will probably be reached, but at an artistic cost to the production: if they had planned on having musicians to begin with - even a relatively small ensemble - it could have been executed smoothly and seamlessly by all of the professionals involved. As it stands, I’m afraid any last-minute adding on of players will end up being unsatisfying on many different levels. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:15 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - selmerboy 11:12 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I do not understand why you would call it silly; it is a part of the artistic integrity of the show. That is not really open to debate but perhaps you can enlighten me on what makes that silly. I do not think there is an "artistic cost" because I would say you have it backwards. Again, that is not the issue here. The rest I pretty much agree with. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:22 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - ryhog 09:27 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Unfortunately, a different poster took us down this road that authorial intent should somehow override union agreements, so we find ourselves discussing what is possible in live music. However this works out, if we find ourselves in a position where non-union musicians get paid a one-time fee for performing the score for a musical in one of the biggest union houses on Broadway, it will be a sad day. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:10 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 10:22 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| This show will not go on without an agreement that the production can afford and that provides the union with agreed upon compensation. There is no precedent in the concept that recorded music and/or synths cannot be used and it is recognized in the collective bargaining agreement. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: student_rush 07:24 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 06:57 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| It’s genuinely ludicrous to value “union rules” over authorial intent in any entertainment medium. We aren’t talking about producers skirting regulations to save money, we are talking about the tone and language of a piece of theatre, and how design and performance stems from within to bring the text to life. Authors are part of the labor force — just ask the WGA. But everything starts with authorial intent. “Union rules” should be, I don’t know, the tenth most important thing when creating and critiquing art. For Christ’s sake, “union rules” are the things that so rapidly inflate line-item run costs for producers, most significantly load-in costs that can single-handedly make the difference between deciding to mount a show in NYC or in the UK. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:10 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 07:24 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Thing is, the union rules you hate so much were the subject of a bargain between the League and AFM. There is no typical agreement between writers and a production that contemplates what you are proposing. It is also incorrect that load-in costs can single-handedly make the difference you describe. You don't mention, for instance, that successful productions can make significantly more money over here. Your rendition betrays anti-union animus which is your prerogative I guess. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:34 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 07:24 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Yes, ask the WGA why they are striking to ensure that they can make a living wage while producers (which I believe is how you identify) find ways to devalue them from the art form to which they are integral. And then insert “musicians” for “writers”. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: student_rush 07:40 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 07:34 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| If Sondheim wrote SWEENEY to be orchestrated and played by a 20+ orchestra pit, that’s how it should be produced and that’s how I want to see it. If David Byrne wrote HERE LIES LOVE to be electronically orchestrated and manipulated, that’s how it should be produced and that’s how I want to see it. No one is devaluing musicians, as they were never intended to be part of this process. Are you insulted when you see a straight play and it doesn’t feature live musicians? And why would it, as it’s not part of that storytelling. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:29 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:26 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 07:40 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| If Sondheim wrote SWEENEY to be orchestrated and played by a 20+ orchestra pit, that’s how it should be produced and that’s how I want to see it. He didn't. He wrote the show on piano (and in fact, Sweeney was the first of Sondheim's vocal scores to be published with his original piano part, pre-orchestration, intact) and the size of the orchestration was not decided upon until the theatre and its musician minimums were settled upon - and that had to do with Prince's huge-scale vision for the show, which actually was NOT what Sondheim originally had in mind. (Sondheim originally saw it as a much smaller, more intimate piece.) Don't make assumptions. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 08:55 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 07:40 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Musicians were absolutely a part of the process: non-Union musicians were paid to record the music (I just learned this from a source very close to the Union). If musicians can record the music, musicians can perform the music. And if DB and FatBoy Slim want to layer on electronic sounds, samples, and effects, they can do that. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 07:57 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:55 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 07:40 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Logic has left the building. The musicians are being devalued because they have been excised as an employee of the show, which is… a musical. You get that, right? And you get that this being a musical makes your argument about a play - which is not a musical - entirely extraneous. The better argument would be how would you feel if you saw a play that featured exclusively motion capture or pre-recorded actors, and thus didn’t employ actors, because it “was the concept”? Look, if Byrne wants prerecorded music, that’s great, so long as the show pays the original musicians a weekly fee for using their performance in the show. Otherwise, the producers have found a way around paying musicians for a musical, and if they do that, who knows what they will cut next. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ablankpage 08:58 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 07:55 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I feel like you haven't seen the show, right? It seems like you don't understand how it works. It's not live music, it's karaoke. It's not a musical, it's a karaoke musical, which is the entire concept/set up for the performance. The producers haven't found a way around anything, they're just producing the musical as it was written and performed in New York, London, Seattle. It's not like it's been on tour with an orchestra and they're sneakily trying to cut them for the Broadway run to save some cash. Musicians were never an employee of the show. So yeah, to your argument, if a play used motion capture or pre-recorded actors as part of their concept, that would make sense to produce it as such because that's the artistic vision for that play. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:56 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - ablankpage 08:58 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Well, it’s not karaoke, and the show’s insistence to the contrary is neither conceptual coherent nor culturally competent. And no one has yet offered a clear, compelling argument why live musicians, unseen by the audience, can’t provide the same experience as a pre-recorded track. Every day, authors have to deal with the ways that the demands of live theater as an industrial medium compromises their intent. If Byrne and Slim can’t achieve their intent on Broadway, then they should not have brought the show to Broadway. There is a model, provided by Sleep No More, of how to do immersive installation theater outside of the normal system. They didn’t choose to go that route. |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: ablankpage 03:22 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - Singapore/Fling 11:56 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I'm not sure where you're getting the authority to decide if it is "conceptual coherent" since you've clearly never seen the show or "culturally competent" since you're white. But cool, thanks for your opinion! | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: student_rush 09:35 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - ablankpage 08:58 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| This is exactly my point. I am not arguing that producers should be able to put musicals on Broadway with reduced orchestras and/or tracking simply as a means of reducing overhead costs. I would be appalled at a production of SWEENEY TODD that was performed to backing tracks. I even hate when smaller productions use prerecorded music as an obvious cost-cutting measure (SPACE DOGS at MCC literally sounded like karaoke -- it was abysmal). I am fiercely advocating for the author's intentions to become fully realized on our biggest stages in America. The authors specifically created a narrative and theatrical universe that doesn't involve any live musicians. I'm the bad guy for supporting artist intent? (Also, I love the ad hominem attacks -- I'm fiercely pro-labor and a member of both AEA and SDC.) |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:40 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 09:35 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| My apologies, this is the first post you’ve written that’s given any indication that you’re pro-labor, so I didn’t know. | |
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| re: This is the artistic choice of the authors | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 04:54 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 09:35 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Forgive, me, but I think you’re naive to think that this decision is about “artistic intent.” In cases where that argument can legitimately be made, the Union has been willing to negotiate a special situations agreement. This production seeks to use zero musicians and instead use a recording made by real musicians - lots of them, in fact, in addition to orchestrators and arrangers, were needed to create the recordings - so the sound of a large band is absolutely a part of the show. Playing a recording rather than using and paying musicians can only be seen as an economic end-run around the CBA. | |
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| re: A point that you may be missing. | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 03:38 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: This is the artistic choice of the authors - student_rush 09:35 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Until 1993 or so, every Broadway theatre had a minimum number of musicians that had to be hired - no exceptions. This harks back to the days when every theatre had an orchestra. Overtires and incidental music for plays was always played live (a rule that you will still see followed in London at the NT, and at the RSC) So, up until the 1990s, if you produced a play in a theatre with an 8 musician minimum, you had to hire 8 musicians to not play. The first workaround in a contract was that theatres decided whether they were playhouses or musical houses. Playhouses became exempt from a minimum number of musicians at all. But then if a musical went into a 'playhouse', they would have to pay a penalty, since that theatre was exempted from a musician minimum because it was a 'playhouse' only. I believe this rule is gone now, as there are almost no plays, and traditional playhouses like The Booth, the Schoenfeld, the JAcobs, the Golden, The Belasco, the Longacre, the Cort/Jones, the Atkinson/Horne, the Barrymore now frequently house musicals. Its about jobs. This is live theatre. Live theatres have orchestras. In the rest of the world rules may be different, but on Broadway the rules are clear - all producers know his - to wilfully ignore the rules as if they don't affect you is a form of madness. As I pointed out elsewhere, the tracks employ up to 19 musicians each. A simple solution would be to say one has to pay each of those musicians on the tracks a weekly salary as if they were playing in the pit. And they all have to join AFM 801 which i am willing to wager very few of them do. Broadway is a business with 17 Labor Unions. Some have rules which are difficult. They don't disappear because you don't like the rules. Rule changes are negotiated and arbitrated. David Byrne knows this. Hal Luftig knows this. The Public knows this. A compromise will be reached, some musicians will be put on contract. If you produce a musical under some contract, you dont need swings. If you come to Broadway you do. |
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| re: A point that you may be missing. | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:51 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: A point that you may be missing. - NewtonUK 03:38 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| NewtonUK, I think that's not altogether correct. For decades, the minimum for nonmusicals was four. If a play had more than a certain amount of live music, the union might decide that it should be classified as a musical and might demand that the minimum for musicals be hired, but that happened very rarely. An example would be The Tempest, way back in 1945. Later, if the rule was still in place, I imagine Marat/Sade would have been classified as a musical according to the union. But otherwise, even in the biggest houses (and the Broadway, the Uris/Gershwin, and the Majestic have all sometimes housed plays), the minimum was four for nonmusicals. | |
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| re: A point that you may be missing. | |
| Posted by: ablankpage 03:27 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: A point that you may be missing. - AlanScott 03:51 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Totally off topic, but I'm curious if you know the answer. How did it work for John Doyle's Sweeney Todd and Company? Did the producers have to pay for a minimum of musicians, or did the cast join the musicians' union? | |
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| re: A point that you may be missing. | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:29 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: A point that you may be missing. - ablankpage 03:27 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| If memory serves, the casts of Sweeney and Company had to join the musicians union. | |
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| re: A point that you may be missing. | |
| Posted by: simbo 05:48 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: A point that you may be missing. - ablankpage 03:27 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| Similar query for "Once" and anythign else that's used cast as musicians (e.g. "I love my Wife" and "Pump Boys and Dinettes") | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: OriginalTopherP 03:50 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Has the show ever been performed with live musicians? My understanding was this is the way the show has always been conceived and staged, at the Public, the National (UK) and Seattle Rep. Not sure how precedent plays into something like union negotiations, but this hardly could have been a surprise to anyone. In general, I hate tracked music but this is one of the few instances where I think it makes sense given the concept and material. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: theatreguy40 03:43 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - selmerboy 03:38 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Wow... can't believe the Musicians' Union is going to go along with this!!! Is this a pre-cursor to what will happen to all Broadway shows?????? Not a good sign... |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:55 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - theatreguy40 03:43 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| Is this a pre-cursor to what will happen to all Broadway shows?????? No. I'm not at all defending the decision here, but let's not jump to ridiculous conclusions. |
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