Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 06:45 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - ryhog 04:45 pm EDT 05/25/23 | |
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| I agree 100%. The producers should have negotiated this with AFM long before now. The Public knows better as well. What fascinates me is that this Broadway transfer was announced quite a while ago. AFM knows very well there were no musicians off Broadway, as AFM has no contract with the Off Broadway League. Although many musicals start at the Public with AFM bands, AFM made no comment, as I recall, that HERE LIES LOVE at the Public was performed to tracks. And they certainly had no grounds to object at that time - and they didn't. But when the Broadway transfer was announced they surely should have contacted Mr Luftig immediately to discuss how the production was going to be done, considering the AFM/Broadway League CBA. V(d) in the AFM CBA with Broadway is clear that if a producer needs to ask for any variance from the minimum number of musicians required in the theatre they are going to play in (19 musicians at the Broadway). The Producer is required to make application for a variance at the time that they contract/announce the theatre they will be playing in. It seems that this likely was not done. There is a lot of language about criteria for having a smaller orchestra approved - but all of these rules rely on a live orchestra of some size being in the show. Rule XIV allows recorded music (tracks) to be used, as long as the minimum size orchestra has been hired. As a sidelight, using recorded music (tracks) in rehearsals is not allowed either. It seems the only way that this can be settled, without setting a precedent that AFM would not want, would be to come up with a number of musicians, (less than 19) that the producers would have to hire and pay for the run (walkers)- along with at least a rehearsal pianist, even if not used, for rehearsals. One qualifier could be determining how many musicians play on the tracks, and requiring that number, up to 19, to be hired for the production We dont have all the facts as yet - but if Mr Luftig and his team did not apply for a variance fairly soon after they announced the production, and still haven't, they have violated the spirit if not the letter of the CBA. if AFM doesn't hold strong on this, the Union Security on the CBA would be in tatters. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:03 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE to open with no live musicians - NewtonUK 06:45 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| The majority of songs on the 2016 HERE LIES LOVE album utilized 16-19 musicians. Some used less. Of course the score can be played live just as effectively as using tracks. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:04 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - NewtonUK 07:03 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I agree with 95% of what you wrote, up to the last sentence. As I discussed in another post or 2, the score cannot be played as effectively because the result would be raw music whereas the whole idea of karaoke is that the person is singing to the recorded, fully produced tracks. I do not think using live music is ever going to happen except at the very end of the show. Not to over-dwell but there is a reasonable number that would have been agreed to in the NORMAL course of things. It is obvious that the show has not been budgeted with 16-19 musicians and I think imposing that would shut the show down before it starts. Of course, if the production moves forward without an agreement, it will also be shut down by a picket line. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - ryhog 11:04 am EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I’m just not clear on what can be done on the recording studio that can’t be done live, considering the sophistication of computers these days. And karaoke’s starting point is people singing famous pop songs while videos with the words play as they sing, which does not seem to be what’s happening here. Rather, we have a conceptual hook of “Filipinos love karaoke” that launches an original score of club music. |
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| SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: sondheimobsessed7090 01:04 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| Hey jumping in here to clarify since no one whose seen it seems to have explained this here - The reason they need to be tracks is because there's a total stripping down of the karaoke club at the end as a symbol of the protest that ended the regime. And at that moment three cast members step in and ask as a small acoustic band, and play live instruments and sing a song in which the lyrics contain verbatim accounts of that protest; So having live instruments for the show up to that moment would entirely take away the integrity of that theatrical conceit - and limit the metaphorical symbolism of that moment - the tracks rather than real instruments demonstrating the overproduced, fake, corrupt, uncaring energy of the Marcos regime in contrast with what feels like a small live indie band, to represent the on the ground, regular people, protesters who just want to live in a free country. What I am confused about in this thread (and I haven't seen the social media posts, so maybe I'm missing something! ) is that I haven't seen any statement from AFM about this or an indication that the deal wasn't actually already made. Bonnie |
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| re: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:18 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:15 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - sondheimobsessed7090 01:04 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| The reason they need to be tracks is because there's a total stripping down of the karaoke club at the end as a symbol of the protest that ended the regime. And at that moment three cast members step in and ask as a small acoustic band, and play live instruments and sing a song in which the lyrics contain verbatim accounts of that protest; So having live instruments for the show up to that moment would entirely take away the integrity of that theatrical conceit - and limit the metaphorical symbolism of that moment - the tracks rather than real instruments demonstrating the overproduced, fake, corrupt, uncaring energy of the Marcos regime in contrast with what feels like a small live indie band, to represent the on the ground, regular people, protesters who just want to live in a free country. Thank you. That's all very very literal. But we're talking about theatre, not reality. Suspension of disbelief and all that. Viscerally speaking, an unseen orchestra would still provide the same exact effect. The actors are playing characters, they are wearing costumes, they are lit by theatre lights on a designed theatrical set, etc - but we aren't supposed to be thinking about that as we watch. In the same exact way, a live orchestra could easily provide the music that the karaoke machine would reproduce in the story. And when a few of the actors later "step in and act as a small acoustic band," they would still be doing something we hadn't yet seen in the show - onstage music performed by the actors. And, because most of us are used to, and expect, live musicians, we wouldn't question the conceit. I doubt anyone would walk out of the production with a live orchestra complaining that it shouldn't have had a live orchestra. I guarantee you. It's just like seeing the wires when Peter Pan flies. It's part of a theatrical conceit. In your literal world, Peter would have to actually levitate on his own. |
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| re: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:28 am EDT 05/28/23 | |
| In reply to: re: SPOILER re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Chromolume 10:15 pm EDT 05/27/23 | |
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| With the understanding (that I have expressed elsewhere in this thread that all of this is a tangent to the only pending issue (viz., that this show cannot go forward without some number of 802 musicians), and with respect, I feel something has blinded you to the actual situation here. This is not about suspension of belief, it is about storytelling. I am guessing you have not seen the show, but having live musicians playing unproduced karaoke tracks does not "provide the exact same effect" for the same reason that recorded and produced music in a typical musical doesn't. (You did land on one obvious aspect of the resolution: as I mentioned previously, the players at the end of the show will obviously need to be or become AFM members and that constitutes a base on which an agreement can be reached. That's non-negotiable.) It's not like this show has no track record. It was done downtown for several months and was nominated for and won a ton of awards as well as being very well reviewed. No one complained that they were "used to, and expect[ed] live musicians." The only thing that has changed here is the venue. Whether people would walk out is a bizarre criteria. Most of us don't walk out of shows even when we intensely dislike them. I think we have beaten this into the ground but to me there is no question that there is not going to be a live orchestra playing the karaoke tracks. And I am pretty sure 802 is not going to demand 19 walkers or anywhere near that. I hope we can all refocus on the actual issue because this one isn't as much fun anymore. :-) |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:43 am EDT 05/27/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| At this stage, I think I will just agree that you are "not clear on what can be done on the recording studio that can’t be done live" and leave it at that. I think I have a clearer understanding on that but it is not worth belaboring the point, especially because it is really beside the point, just a sidebar really to what needs to be unraveled on the substance of where things stand between the union and the producer. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:18 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Singapore/Fling 05:09 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| we have a conceptual hook of “Filipinos love karaoke” And, does that even send the right message? |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:58 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE PS - musicians on the 2016 album - Chromolume 09:18 pm EDT 05/26/23 | |
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| I think it’s neither conceptually sound nor culturally competent, and it sends me a lot of warning sounds about how the show will understand and interpret Filipino culture. | |
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