Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - MockingbirdGirl 01:58 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| What is not fair to the public is denying artists the right to present their work in exactly the way they conceived is. This is absurd. The minimums for a theater were created decades ago. Local 802 really needs to back off. This is not their call. | |
| reply to this message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: Shutterbug 05:22 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| I don’t think anyone is denying artists the right to present their work as they conceived it, but the show does have to pay the agreed-upon minimums if they want to use a Broadway house. That’s just how the business of show business works on Broadway, The musicians don’t actually have to play a single note, and the show can use the recorded music if that’s how the creatives want it. But…the show must pay the minimums. Undermining the collective bargaining agreement isn’t good for anyone in the long run. I find it difficult to believe the producers didn't foresee this. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: kess0078 09:43 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - Shutterbug 05:22 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Maybe I don’t have a full understanding of how the nuts & bolts work, but I have a hard time understanding how a show could be THIS close to production without some sort of agreement? Can anyone with knowledge of the producer/ union agreements enlighten me? How could they possibly be cutting it so close with nobody raising this issue sooner? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 11:21 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - kess0078 09:43 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| The producers knew exactly what they were doing. The issue was raised weeks ago and there have been many meetings between the producers and the union. Things are in the open now. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 05:07 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| ... and according to David Byrne's own site (linked), it's chock full of live musicians: guitar, violin, viola, cello, bass, flute, oboe, clarinet, saxes, English horn, French horn, trumpet, trombone, drums. Why not just do the show with live performers? If it's good enough for the cast recording, it should be good enough for Broadway. |
|
| Link | Here Lies Love cast recording (2016) |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: Hair 11:30 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - MockingbirdGirl 05:07 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Listen to that recording, not just read it You can't play that music live and make it sound like that. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:31 pm EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - Hair 11:30 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| This is correct and I don't know why it escapes quite a few others here. That said, I do not agree with what you say elsewhere about "rules." The "rule" here is actually a contract provision, not just a custom. A breach is a breach is a breach. Complying with the contract does not intrude on artistic freedom; it just adds a price tag. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... (19 musicians!) | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:06 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - MockingbirdGirl 05:07 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| PS - There are 19 musicians on the recording. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: kidmanboy 06:16 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - MockingbirdGirl 05:07 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| The show had never been performed with live musicians over the past 10 years. I’m shocked that this is coming as a surprise to anyone. While those instruments were played by someone, the sound on the recording and in the theater is heavily manipulated. Fatboy slim, co-composer of the show, is a dj. I don’t think this is just as easy as replacing the music that has been created with live instruments. Also, someone mentions above that they should just pay the 19 musicians. Would that, indeed, be acceptable to the union? I didn’t get the impression that was that easy either. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 06:59 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - kidmanboy 06:16 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| "I’m shocked that this is coming as a surprise to anyone." Nobody said they were shocked. They have said that the production needs to follow the rules. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: Hair 11:32 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - Ncassidine 06:59 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Yes because in theater and art the most important thing is NOT artistic expression or the vision of the artist, it's following the rules That's what art is all about -- YOU MUST FOLLOW RULES RULES RULES |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Do you believe the production should pay actors the Equity minimum? | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 11:36 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 11:36 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - Hair 11:32 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| Or are those also union-negotiated rules that can be dispensed with? Want to produce "art" without Broadway's restrictions? Find another venue. There are theaters aplenty. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Do you believe the production should pay actors the Equity minimum? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 05:10 pm EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: Do you believe the production should pay actors the Equity minimum? - MockingbirdGirl 11:36 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| Ha...well actually the city was scoured, initially by the Public and other producers, back closer to the original run and they didn't feel at all like their options were aplenty. I think Circle in the Square came up a lot as it might have ended up similar to the scale at the Public, but something about the footprint of the venue didn't work or makse sense. A poster in some thread mentioned Sleep No More and I had never thought about this being a standalone experience like that, but it's an interesting idea. I think they really want the Broadway machine. And as you and others note, that comes with rules and contracts. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:21 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - kidmanboy 06:16 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| AFAIK, that would be OK with the union. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 11:17 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - AlanScott 06:21 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| That is most definitely not what the union wants. My guess is that the Union would accept a special situations agreement, and that they would rather put 8-10 musicians in playing jobs than have 19 union members as walkers. This is about jobs on this show, yes, but it’s also about the future of and - believe it or not - the integrity of the Broadway Musical. Seriously. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Last Edit: SCH 09:04 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| Posted by: SCH 09:01 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - selmerboy 11:17 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| When you speak of the integrity of the Broadway musical, shouldn't you also be speaking of artistic integrity? As those who have seen other iterations of this show can attest, there are very valid artistic reasons for using prerecorded tracks for this particular show. The entire conceit of the show is predicated on it, and the sound and style of the tracks (which are essential to the conceit of the show) cannot be reproduced with live music. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: selmerboy 05:07 pm EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - SCH 09:01 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| Of course the sound can be reproduced by live musicians. It's not electronic music. It was recorded by real musicians playing real instruments. And, as I've said before, all you have to do is step into Six, Hamilton, And Juliet, or any number of other shows to see that virtually any style of music can be played live. The "artistic integrity" argument from the producers is a dodge. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:30 pm EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - selmerboy 05:07 pm EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| There's the rub: You manifestly do not understand the first thing about record producing and yet you pretend you do. (And you are not alone.) The "sound" of a recording cannot be reproduced by live musicians because it is impossible to proceed live in the manner that a record is recorded, edited, and produced in a studio. And when you say otherwise, it's clear you just don't understand. It's like saying that you saw Rigoletto last night and the string parts were played by kazoos but it "of course" was the opera. It is also like saying that you saw the film of West Side Story and it was just the same as seeing it on stage. It has NOTHING to do with the genre of music; it is about the way the sound is delivered to the audience's ears. As I have said before, this topic is a tangent to the issue that prompted this increasingly weird thread, but the bottom line is that if someone discerns what karaoke is, having it played by live musicians in a theatre is a fraud. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:39 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - AlanScott 06:21 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| They would be ok with it but that misses the point. The union agreed to a procedure for reducing the number below the minimum. It is a procedure that has been used a number of times. That procedure, of which the producer and GM were well aware, is ordinarily put in motion as soon as the theatre is secured, and involves a committee (made up of both sides plus quite esteemed neutrals) that is tasked to determine an appropriate number of musicians in the circumstances. Here, that procedure was NOT initiated on a timely basis for reasons that are not clear but appear to be somewhat delusional on the production's part. Based on what is being reported, the process is clearly not going to be completed in time. If not, will 802 picket? (I would think yes.) Will anyone cross the picket line? (I would think no.) If that's the case then, considering what they have spent already, I suspect they will be forced to cough up the contract minimum, which they undoubtedly cannot afford. Another unnecessary mess. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:50 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - ryhog 07:39 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| At this point, I wouldn’t see the show at all. Even if a deal is stuck, these producers knew what they were doing and clearly thought they would get away with it. It’s disgusting, a clear intention to not pay artists, and is in line with the horrendous behavior we’re seeing in Hollywood right now. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: Hair 11:34 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - Singapore/Fling 12:50 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| HOW DARE THESE ARTISTS NOT WANT TO CREATE ART THAT FOLLOWS YOUR DIRECTIVES INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN??? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:04 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - Singapore/Fling 12:50 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| You can of course make your own decisions but your narrative does not comport with the one that has now been made public by the parties. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:06 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - ryhog 01:04 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| You’re right - I trusted the poster who said that the Times article didn’t have anything new in it, and so missed that Luft has been talking with the union since February. Still, they are losing the PR game here. Get ahead of the story, people. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:46 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - Singapore/Fling 10:06 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| Well that explains the disconnect. And yes, this is not being handled well. And I think this is another area where having unattuned people in charge of marketing and publicity results in the absence of a clear message. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 08:14 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:11 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I've just looked at the credits for the 2016 cast recording... - ryhog 07:39 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Just answering a question in the post to which I responded. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: NoPeopleLike 04:57 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Wrong. The mininums were agreed to by the Broadway League in the most recent collective bargaining contract. That's the deal if you want to use a Broadway theater to present a musical. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: dreamawakening 04:55 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Such an absurd post. Maybe they can ignore salary rates negotiated by equity and pay the cast minimum wage. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 04:20 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| It actually is their call, by virtue of HLL wanting to use a Broadway house. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| "Won't someone please think of the public!" | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 04:20 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 04:19 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| What is not fair to the public is denying artists the right to present their work in exactly the way they conceived is. Absolutely no one is denying them the right to present their work to the public exactly the way they conceived it. If just getting it out there in the public sphere is the goal, there are any number of venues they could book to accomplish that. But if they want the prestige of presenting it in a Broadway house—and the attendant benefits that go along with it, including national exposure and a shot at Tony Award recognition—then there are longstanding agreements that come into play. And certainly, no union that is a party to those agreements needs to "back off." |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:52 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - theaterisok 03:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| You put on a Broadway show, you play by Broadway’s rules. That’s why unions exist. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: Hair 11:35 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - Singapore/Fling 03:52 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| And as we all know, the most important point about art and theater is rule following It's why theater exists and why people attend WE LOVE RULES!! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: FortPeck 03:51 pm EDT 05/31/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - Hair 11:35 am EDT 05/31/23 | |
|
|
|
| You've made a similar comment a few times. Maybe you're not understanding that these "rules" aren't just observed out of convention, like "no-white-after-Labor-Day", by Victorian-era schoolmasters with unhealthy fixations. They are contractual provisions that are being enforced by the parties who negotiated them. This is apparently the price of admission for contracting with a Broadway house. If the producers don't like it for artistic reasons (which I am very sympathetic too since it's a karaoke show), or they can't make the math work, they can find a different venue. Or maybe you're being deliberately obtuse cuz that's fun for you. :) It is shocking to me that they are this close to proposed opening and are still working this out... |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 04:36 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 04:34 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - Singapore/Fling 03:52 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| I had the impression that there had been so much work done in renovating the theatre for this show already. It seems awfully hard on the producers at this late date. Besides, everyone on Broadway has been operating at a loss for the past couple of years. There doesn’t seem to be much cooperation with getting the show up. Remember those days when people would work for union scale just to keep a show running? (Wasn’t it true of the acting companies for Albee’s ALL OVER and the straight play FROZEN?) Seems to me that Everybody is just wanting pieces of pie before it’s even cooked. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:32 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - lordofspeech 04:34 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| I’m pretty sure all the musicians work for scale, so if that’s the issue, we’ve solved it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:46 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - Singapore/Fling 05:32 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| I am pretty sure you are right about this. Musicians and I think also ensemble members work for scale, even in the biggest hits. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation | |
| Posted by: JAllenC3 04:45 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
| In reply to: re: NYT now has reporting on the 'Here Lies Love' situation - lordofspeech 04:34 pm EDT 05/30/23 | |
|
|
|
| Hard on the producers? They knew about the theater's minimums when it was booked. they should have had that baked into their costs from day one. The fact is simple that the union wouldn't care if the musicians didn't play a note as long as they were paid. Clearly it's the producers that don't want to live up to the negotiated minimums for this house. Additionally, no, not everyone has been operating at a loss for the past couple of years. Plenty of shows are turning healthy profits. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.252639 seconds.