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| Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" | |
| Posted by: dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| The producers really are playing this very badly, I think | |
| Link | https://playbill.com/article/musicians-union-responds-after-here-lies-love-characterizes-them-as-artistic-gatekeepers?fbclid=IwAR3Mg8uIeLwZkAkUnAdbBSK8_UKBWfwc1Hhps18y-b-krOjTxUjLFuuuQTs |
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| re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:53 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| This was posted on Facebook by Robert Meffe. In the replies, he gave permission for it to be shared. I'm linking the Facebook page. ************* The controversy over HERE LIVES LOVE on Broadway is being muddled by misinformation. As a lifelong member of the musicians' union, and also a musical theatre researcher, I wrote an extensive journal article entitled "How Many Musicians Does it Take: A History and Analysis of the Shrinking Broadway Pit Orchestra." I encourage anyone to read it; I've included a link here. It's peer-reviewed and painstakingly researched. If you don't have the time, let me clear up some misconceptions: (1) This isn't about artistic freedom. To produce a musical show in a Broadway house, you have to rent that theatre. Renting that theatre comes with certain conditions; for instance, you have to pay for ushers. Another condition that has to be met is that if you are producing a musical, you have to pay for musicians. The number of musicians is what is called the "minimum." At the Broadway Theatre where HERE LIVES LOVE is about to open, the contract says you have to pay for 19 musicians and they want to pay for 0 musicians. Without being granted an exception, this is a contractual obligation. That's it. Not paying for the musicians is equivalent of sending an actor out on the road and not paying them per diem. It's in the contract. Or not paying for an IATSE carpenter. You may not like paying it, but you have to. (2) But what if a show doesn't need 19 musicians? Well, that's what the "Special Situations" clause comes in. Before the 1990's, shows that only used fewer musicians than the minimum had to hire walkers, which were musicians who didn't play, but were on the payroll to meet the minimum. One notable example was A CHORUS LINE who paid walkers for years. (3) But wait, isn't that the grossest example of featherbedding? Well, perhaps. But that's what the Special Situations clause eliminated. A producer can apply for an exemption. They have to argue their case to a neutrally balanced panel, and it is either approved or not approved. If contested, it can go to binding arbitration. Since the special situations clause came into effect there have been no walkers. Let me repeat that, there have been no musicians paid NOT to play on Broadway for over thirty years. PS: I've never met a musician who would have wanted to be a walker. Anyone who thinks we would want to be paid not to play is demeaning the years of training and practice that we do to get where we are. Musicians want a chance to play, and that is why these minimums exist. (4) Hold on, there's no way anyone would approve a special situation for a Broadway musical? Wouldn't that piss off the union? Actually, lots of shows have exemptions. Here's some you might not have heard of: MAMMA MIA played for years at the Winter Garden under the minimum with no walkers. If you can believe, it, HAMILTON has a special exemption. Maybe even more surprising, David Byrne's own AMERICAN UTOPIA had an exemption. (5) So, what's the problem with HERE LIES LOVE? The problem is that the producers of HERE LIES LOVE don't think they are going to get approved for the special situation exemption and they are taking it to the public and framing their choice to ignore a contractual obligation as a restriction of their freedom of artistic choice. They have accused the musicians' union with "gate-keeping" and are refusing to hire musicians. Conclusion: people can agree to disagree whether minimums (1) Are fair rules to protect jobs and the artistic integrity of Broadway musicals or (2) Union featherbedding that inhibit artistic freedom. But that is not what this controversy is about. It's simply a real estate contract for which the producers are not abiding. |
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| Link | Robert Meffe page |
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| agree with all of the enclosed article and everyone who is reading this thread should read it nm | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:23 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - AlanScott 04:53 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" | |
| Last Edit: den 07:03 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: den 07:01 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - AlanScott 04:53 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| A lucid, utterly clear explanation. Thank you for posting. | |
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| Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Last Edit: Michael_212 09:59 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 09:58 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| In cases where Broadway orchestras are hidden from the actors' view, is it required for the conductor to be visible on a monitor? I imagine this would break the illusion that the audience is at a club where people are performing karaoke, and perhaps would be difficult to accomplish with the show's multiple moving stages. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 10:12 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 10:10 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: Question re: hidden orchestras - Michael_212 09:58 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| Monitor visibility is about giving musical cues to those on stage, not about the audience. I'm not privy to the details of 802s contracts, but I'd be shocked if there's any such "requirement" not dictated by the necessity of being able to synchronize vocal and instrumental entrances and tempos. (Also, I think the jig will be up that it's not really a karaoke club based on the venue and ticket prices. There will always be an element of willing suspension of disbelief.) |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 11:49 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - MockingbirdGirl 10:10 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| Monitor visibility is about giving musical cues to those on stage, not about the audience. Yes, maybe I wasn't clear. My concern is that I recall the DJ having an opening introduction mentioning the popularity of karaoke in Filipino culture. If it's clear to the audience that the show is not really using karaoke it could make his speech seem disingenuous. I think it would be different in a traditional 4th wall setting, but the immersive aspect presents a different level of reality. |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 01:58 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:57 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Michael_212 11:49 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I don't know how the theatre is being set up for this show, but in most productions, I don't think the audience is all that aware of the monitors, unless of course they're specifically looking for them lol. I think it's much like other visible tech elements. There wouldn't be huge visible Broadway lighting plots in a karaoke bar either, but I assume those lights will be there. But as in most shows, I doubt the majority of the audience will think about that, specifically once the show is in progress. How often do you go to a show and get that distracted by the lighting instruments? Usually we get involved with the actors and the show itself and we don't think about them. If people demand their money back or grumble because there were conductor monitors (or other obvious theatrical tech elements) in what's supposed to be a "real" karaoke bar, I tend to think we've started to lose the point of THEATER as an art form. |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 05:39 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Chromolume 01:57 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| This is a show performed like in an arena where much of the audience stands among moveable stages which are frequently being arranged into different formations throughout the floor. If monitors are required to be within the actors' sightlines, they would most likely also have to be moveable. It's not like you're sitting in a proscenium theatre and you'd have to look behind you to see the monitors. The standing audience members are frequently 360 degrees surrounding these moveable stages. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 04:30 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Michael_212 05:39 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| This was one of the questions I had. How would you deal with the conductor. You would have to have stage hands moving monitors around or an array of screens throughout the space. |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 06:12 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - whereismikeyfl 04:30 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| I don't know if you've seen the show yet, but there are already stage hands moving the stages around and projections are already a major part of the storytelling. There's no spoken word book or recitative, so the projected headlines and photos serve as the book, moving the story along. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:47 am EDT 06/04/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Michael_212 06:12 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| All that expense for moving stages and what not. But no pay for musicians. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 10:08 am EDT 06/04/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Chromolume 12:47 am EDT 06/04/23 | |
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| Surely, if the venue requires paying a certain number of musicians I agree they should be paid. That's on the producers. I just wouldn't want to see the authors have to rewrite their show and eliminate a major theme because of an oversight. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:01 pm EDT 06/04/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Michael_212 10:08 am EDT 06/04/23 | |
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| Surely, if the venue requires paying a certain number of musicians I agree they should be paid. Thank you. |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:45 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - Michael_212 05:39 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| All that, and no pay for the musicians. Hmm. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) | |
| Last Edit: pecansforall 10:42 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 10:39 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras - MockingbirdGirl 10:10 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| Just out of curiosity does anyone remember if the 2006 revival of A CHORUS LINE had any video monitors on the balcony rail for the cast to be able to see the conductor? I would imagine not as they would reflect in the onstage mirrors. Certainly the original production had no such video monitors. | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:45 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) - pecansforall 10:39 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I imagine that they did, or they had some sort of equivalent solution. The conductor was visible in the original production. Personally, I can't imagine doing A Chorus Line without some sort of contact between conductor and cast - and I've done a number of shows exactly that way in regional theatre. |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 11:43 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) - Chromolume 10:45 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| The conductor was visible in the original production. Are you sure that the conductor was visible in the original production? I'm not trying to doubt but I've been sort of obsessed with the show since the seventies and I don't think it ever dawned on me that the conductor would have possibly been visible. |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:47 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) - pecansforall 11:43 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I saw the production - I believe it was in the spring of 1980 (a school trip). I could see the conductor from where I was sitting. I specifically remember his cutoff at the end of the show (I was wondering how that would work in the theatre, as it's of course iconically a fadeout on the cast recording). | |
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| re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:23 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: hidden orchestras (A CHORUS LINE) - Chromolume 01:47 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| When it was at the Public, of course, the orchestra was backstage, and the conductor was not visible. And that was in pre-monitor days. Shows where the conductor was not visible to the actors managed to survive without monitors back in the past. There weren't that many back then, but there were some. Probably more Off-Broadway. | |
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| So many questions and mixed feelings | |
| Posted by: theaterislife 12:20 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| First off, none of this should be a surprise to anyone involved in the show. Literally everyone who knows anything about Broadway understands these houses have minimums for the orchestras. I do wonder if anyone knows whether this music really cannot be played in whole or in part by a live band. If it really, truly has to be pre-recorded, then I do think there is probably a case to make that this show should get a waiver and let it proceed as conceived (or potentially negotiate a small minimum). I just don't know if that's the case. But while it would be tough for the musicians, a lot of other theater people have been and will be employed by this show if it can open. For Broadway to be financially viable over the long-term it may need to continue to find ways to be flexible and adapt at a time when inflation is very high and costs are skyrocketing, including the cost of tickets for theater-goers, while also ensuring theater professionals are paid a fairly for their talents and work. All that said, there is simply no way that this show can be allowed to set a new precedent or kick off a trend that it's ok for musicals to use canned orchestras. An exception to the rule is ok in unique circumstances, and I'm sure there lots of room to debate the minimums in the next contract negotiations, but it is a legit worry that producers would do anything to save a dollar with smaller or pre-taped orchestras if they could (see recent comments from Cameron Macintosh about Phantom's amazing orchestra). How many musicals will have an "artistic choice" to be pre-taped in the future if we're not careful? And as we know from several recent productions it is so glorious when you have a 20+ piece orchestra playing a beautiful score, and when robust ticket sales allow those shows to flourish and continue on. Many mixed feelings on this and will be interesting to see how it plays out, so to speak. |
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| "I want to be a drummer, mom. I want to be a drummer. I gotta call the people, mom, and get 'em all together." | |
| Last Edit: wizrdofoz27 05:21 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| Posted by: wizrdofoz27 05:08 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| "Why don't you love me? ...You used to love me. Was it just pretend?" I loved Here Lies Love at the Public. Like, a lot. I also had no idea the music was all pre-recorded. I could have sworn I saw musicians up in the rafters. I guess not. Like others have said, the conflict can hardly have come as a surprise to the producers here. Surely there would have been ways to make this work- productions like the John Doyle Sweeney Todd and Company figured out how to do a musical without a separate orchestra. If the producers here really failed to anticipate this issue, I can sadly only imagine what other mishaps await this production. |
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| Link | From 2005: "Sweeney Todd Producers and Unions Strike Deal about Actor-Musicians" |
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| re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" | |
| Posted by: Hair 02:38 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| I saw HLL twice at the Public and LOVED it, and I fully support their decision to use tracks instead of live musicians... BUT... the people in charge of this at the show are really stupidly hurting their own show's PR. This CAN'T have been a surprise to them as it's been in this musician-less incarnation for YEARS. How can they not have seen this coming and had plan?? It makes no sense and makes it seem like the show was just recently put together and was rushed into a transfer from Off Broadway with no notice. very strange! |
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| Agreed | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 01:01 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 01:00 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| And certainly the worst possible strategy to badmouth the union while simultaneously asking them for a waiver! My interest in ever seeing this show has evaporated. |
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| I saw it at the Public | |
| Posted by: Genealley 01:50 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: Agreed - MockingbirdGirl 01:00 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| OK, but such brou-ha-ha over such a slight show. (But never as slight as BAD CINDERELLA. Saw it one more time last night to see the understudy. Really? How about holding a note?) | |
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| re: I saw it at the Public | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 03:34 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:26 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: I saw it at the Public - Genealley 01:50 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| The "brou-ha-ha" has nothing to do with the quality of the show. It doesn't matter if the show is good, bad, or indifferent. Musicians need to be hired, compensated, and credited for their work past and present with this piece - and/or at very least, the producers need to acknowledge the issue in a mature and responsible way. It could be the worst show ever written - no matter - that still has to happen. I'd love to ask why you feel you can be so flip about it, but I won't. It's telling that even posters like "Hair" above, who support the use of the tracks, still admit that the producers have stepped in it big time here. And as much as I would like to support this show, especially for its casting, etc - I just can't at this point. |
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| "Flip": because | |
| Posted by: Genealley 03:35 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I saw it at the Public - Chromolume 03:26 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| I think this should have been flagged and resolved WAY before now. As in Off Broadway? | |
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| re: "Flip": because | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:53 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: "Flip": because - Genealley 03:35 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| The producer(s) have been and continue to be really really dumb and this show will be taught at Columbia some day. But there was nothing to resolve off-Broadway. Likewise, there would be nothing to resolve if they had rented the Beaumont, or the American Airlines, or probably most logically Studio 54. But now they have a lot of investors who put money in for all the right reasons who are going to get scalded and they have created a gigantic mess from which they will never extricate themselves. And this has not been 802's finest hour either. | |
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| re: "Flip": because | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 03:42 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:42 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: "Flip": because - Genealley 03:35 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| I agree. I'm not sure that explains your flip-ness, but I do agree with you. | |
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| re: I saw it at the Public | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 02:27 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: I saw it at the Public - Genealley 01:50 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| Why would you see a show more than once that you didn't like? | |
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| ???? | |
| Posted by: Genealley 02:44 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: re: I saw it at the Public - Ncassidine 02:27 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| Why not? To see the understudy. Had to be better (or as good) than the original Bway lead? Alas...not. |
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| re: ???? | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 02:50 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: ???? - Genealley 02:44 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| Most people don't have $$$ to throw away on shows they don't like, unless you're being comped. | |
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| ???? rev 2 | |
| Posted by: Genealley 02:58 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: re: ???? - Ncassidine 02:50 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| Most people? They were selling rush tickets right up to curtain for $30. |
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| re: ???? rev 2 | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 03:07 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: ???? rev 2 - Genealley 02:58 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| I think I can promise you that most people don't have $30 to see the understudy in a show they already know they don't like. One (this one, anyway) doesn't understand why anyone would waste their time or money that way. I'm not trying to start an argument for argument's sake; I'm just mystified. | |
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| re: ???? rev 2 | |
| Posted by: PlazaBoy 05:54 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: re: ???? rev 2 - keikekaze 03:07 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| I really appreciate this point in a broad sense. I often feel like some couldn't imagine not having an extra $30. Many fully employed people have little or nothing left over at the end of the day, particularly now with inflation. It's a good reminder. My comment is meant in a general sense. I do not mean it to be directed towards any poster in particular. |
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| re: ???? rev 2 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:19 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: re: ???? rev 2 - keikekaze 03:07 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| There are definitely actors for whom I would drop $30, even in a show I didn't particularly like. That being said... I'm glad I didn't have to make that call for Bad Cinderella. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| Fine. Stay mystified. | |
| Last Edit: Genealley 03:13 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| Posted by: Genealley 03:09 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: re: ???? rev 2 - keikekaze 03:07 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| I'm going back to watching my DIANA video. | |
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| re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:58 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| Agreed. And it is profoundly hideous of them to use both the goal of broadening Broadway's cultural boundaries and the clear need to recognize historically neglected communities as an excuse to not pay musicians for a show entirely created by white artists. | |
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| re: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 12:28 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
| In reply to: Producers: "Here Lies Love Does Not Believe in Artistic Gate-Keepers" - dbdbdb 12:15 pm EDT 06/01/23 | |
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| Yikes. Calling hardworking musicians and their union gatekeepers is not only factually incorrect but harmful to the entire industry. | |
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