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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: J.Collins 02:37 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: Gendered award categories (NPR) - kieran 12:34 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| It's such a complex issue and I think people need to be cautious of dismissing awards ceremonies of being 'old-fashioned' for having gendered acting categories. Having a 'Best Female Actor' category ensured visibility for female actors. Without that category I suspect acting awards (especially in film) would have been overwhelmingly won by male actors. Having non-gendered categories for acting makes perfect sense, but what will happen if male actors start dominating those categories? The Tonys would be blasted for being sexist and regressive. Giving two awards in the same category doesn't really make all that much sense - why not give out two directing awards? Two awards for scenic design? What would happen if two male-identifying actors repeatedly won the acting awards? Awards ceremonies need to adapt to reflect gender diversity, but I'm not sure that getting rid of gendered acting awards is the quick fix some people seem to be implying | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Last Edit: Ann 08:44 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: Ann 08:42 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - J.Collins 02:37 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| (I haven't listened to the NPR piece yet). Yes, it is complicated. But I for one am tired of reading things that project "We don't think you'll be recognized for merit (because of prejudice), so we'll just make it easier for you." It's a pat on the head and offensive. I'm pro non-gendered categories, and if it looks like there is discrimination, deal with that. Not expecting a quick fix. I think things have progressed enough that women can compete with men in the performing arts. Equity in the nominating and voting process helps, too. I'd like to hear why you think men will dominate? On the two awards comparison, there are far more acting candidates than directors, scenic designers, etc. and multiple winners makes sense. Just my opinion. |
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| Gendered or Non-Gendered Acting Categories | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 12:58 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:47 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Ann 08:42 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| In 1947 when the Tonys debuted, the acting categories were gender neutral. There were 4 winners for OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE: Ingrid Bergman, Helen Hayes, Jose Ferrer, Fredric March. The sole winner for OUTSTANDING MUSICAL PERFORMANCE was David Wayne. In 1948 and 1949 there were separate categories for lead male and female actors in Plays. The categories for MUSICAL PERFORMANCE; NEWCOMER; and/or SUPPORTING in Plays were gender neutral. In 1950 all acting categories for plays, musicals, leads, and supporting were separate for male and female actors. The Oscars (going back to their debut in 1927-28) have always had separate categories for male and female actors. I've never seen stated reasons for separate acting categories for male and female actors, although I'm sure that in the early decades white males clearly dominated. I imagine that began to change significantly in the 1940's. Today I don't think women would have any trouble competing against men. I think it's more about what audiences want. I suspect that audiences prefer a single winner in acting categories and not multiples ones, but that's just my opinion. I think you would actually have to poll audiences and actors themselves to determine what's the best way to proceed when it comes to gender. I can't imagine the Oscars ever going to gender neutral acting categories, not after 96 years of a tradition that audiences have accepted worldwide. Of course, the Tonys are a completely different animal. The audience is much, much smaller and more specialized. Nevertheless, the devil is in the details when it comes to introducing change without driving audiences away. What about an idea like a single new acting category, something like Best Gender Nonconforming Performer in a Play or Musical? It would cover all roles, musical, play, lead, and supporting. It would be an option for nonbinary, transgender, and gender nonconforming actors who do not feel comfortable competing in gendered specific categories. Just a neutral suggestion -- I'm not pushing an agenda, just looking for some common ground in order to find consensus. |
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| re: Gendered or Non-Gendered Acting Categories | |
| Last Edit: Ann 01:06 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| Posted by: Ann 12:55 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: Gendered or Non-Gendered Acting Categories - BroadwayTonyJ 12:47 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| I don't think that's a good idea, but it is not my place to decide what non-gender-conforming (I hope that's an accepted term) across would like. My issues with separate categories comes from my feeling that they're separate because people think women can't compete, poor things, and I think we can. | |
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| re: Gendered or Non-Gendered Acting Categories | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 01:53 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered or Non-Gendered Acting Categories - Ann 12:55 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| Interesting. I thought that in the past you supported a change to non-gendered acting categories to promote inclusivity and/or representation for everyone. I took that to mean for nonbinary performers. I find it hard to believe in 2023 that anyone still believes that women can't compete with men for something as trivial as acting awards. My life experience has certainly proved that is not the case. As a novice high school teacher in 1970, I reported to a veteran female instructor. As a 2nd lieutenant in the U.S. Army, at times my superior officer was a female captain. In 1987 when I began work in purchasing for a paper company, my customer service manager was a woman. Years later when I was in sales and sales service, the chairman of our board of directors was also female. I think many, possibly most, female actors would rather be the sole winner of the Tony for Best Actress in a Musical rather than be one of two or three winners in a Non-Gendered Performer in a Musical category. It would probably give her more leverage in a negotiation for a higher salary. The same would apply for a male actor. At least that's what I've been told. I found the term "gender nonconforming" on Wikipedia. |
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| Just give all nominees a participation award | |
| Posted by: dramedy 02:41 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Ann 08:42 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| And that solves all the issues🤪 | |
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| And a lollipop! (nm) | |
| Posted by: TheHarveyBoy 04:48 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: Just give all nominees a participation award - dramedy 02:41 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| Put 'em back they way they was! | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 09:09 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Ann 08:42 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I'd be very interested in seeing statistics of who has won the majority of awards in already non-gendered categories (like director, lighting, etc.) Obviously, there may be a bias because there ARE more male directors than female directors (is this true? It's just a guess). | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:24 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Ncassidine 09:09 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| What we can say is that there are more male directors HIRED than female directors. | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Last Edit: Zelgo 08:57 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 08:51 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Ann 08:42 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| Honestly, having gendered categories helps ramp up the drama during awards shows. Actors and actresses tend to be the biggest names so viewers tune in specifically to see them. In a world divided into male/female for millennia, demanding that everything suddenly become gender neutral is rather presumptuous--plus it's unclear what major problem is being solved by doing so. Don't fit into a category neatly? Choose one. We do it already when determining who should be nominated for Best Actor vs Best Supporting Actor, for example |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:45 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Zelgo 08:51 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| The problem being solved is that not everyone fits into make/female identities, and they haven’t for millennia but are finally being given space to express that. It’s presumptuous to demand that we deny their existence because that’s how it’s been done in the past. |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Last Edit: Official_Press_Release 10:34 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| Posted by: Ann 10:23 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Zelgo 08:51 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| What is the premise for separating male and female actors? Just because that's the way it's been done? You would have been fun in 1919. | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 09:10 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Zelgo 08:51 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| The problem with "choose one" is that you're putting the burden on nonbinary actors, and telling them they HAVE to compete as male or female, when they don't identify as either. | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: downtownlw 11:03 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Ncassidine 09:10 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I don’t see a problem with giving two awards and having non-binary actors listed as such. As long as they don’t give both awards to two men or two women, it shouldn’t be a problem. Unlike sports, where a non-binary or trans athlete may have ( keyword “may”) a biological advantage over other athletes, the problem does not exist in the theatre. | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Thom915 05:52 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - downtownlw 11:03 am EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| If you have a rule to not give the award to two men or two women (or two non-binary persons) what is the difference in the way it is now ? What if the best performances were given by two men or two women or two non-binary persons? I am likely for a non gendered category I think though perhaps the Tonys like the Oscars and Emmys should wait a couple years and see how it plays out in those awards that already have non gendered categories. Another solution would be to have the role define the category such as Best performance as a female in a supporting role. But there you would automatically have the problem once non-binary roles start becoming written. (I do not consider Daphne to be a non-binary role since the character starts as a cis gendered male and it is unclear how they consider their gender by the end of the show. Lulu in Shucked is definitely a female role and damn does Alex Newell perform the hell out of it! I would give Newell both Tonys) | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:44 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Thom915 05:52 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| Daphne is written as someone who has been expected to exist as a man and discovers that they are not actually a man after all… which means that Daphne was never a cis-man. | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: Thom915 07:44 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Singapore/Fling 07:44 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I will grant you that is likely valid but it was never really clear to me the difference between how Daphne liked "acting" and how Daphne liked "being" I have known many trans women since the seventies and also many men who dressed as women but considered themselves to be men, probably cisgender men. (I think some have rethought that) and I was not 100% sure where Daphne fit in. Upon reflection, You are likely correct but there is a gut instinct I have that if the award category must be gendered, male seems the appropriate one for this. Probably a better argument for non gendered awards categories. | |
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| re: Gendered award categories (NPR) | |
| Posted by: downtownlw 07:32 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Gendered award categories (NPR) - Thom915 05:52 pm EDT 06/02/23 | |
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| I guess you’re right. There isn’t an easy solution to the problem. I totally agree with you about Alex Newell. | |
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