Threaded Order Chronological Order
| HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:33 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| Yes, Virginia, that was the music was originally performed. With a - wait for it - 18 piece orchestra. 3 times in Australia in 2006, and in 2007 at sold out Carnegie Hall concert. A photo is circulating online of the concert, showing Byrne, singers, and 18 musicians (at least) live on stage at Carnegie Hall. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 12:33 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - NewtonUK 07:33 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| I think you may be confused. No one ever claimed the score had to be synthesized. It was always going to be recorded by musicians playing actual instruments. The issue was the quality of the music in a venue that is not a concert hall and the plays concept which places the action in a disco--a venue where recorded music is part of the experience. This reminds me of the union's protest of one of Tharp's Sinatra ballets. The union suggested using live musicians and a Sinatra impersonator rather than Sinatra's recordings. Who knew musicians could have such a tin ear? |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: Hair 08:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - NewtonUK 07:33 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| How dare they want to do the show they want to do and not be locked in to how they did it once 15 years ago???? Who do they think they are -- the creators of the piece?!?!?! |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 01:58 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - Hair 08:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| With due respect, I point out that the producers are subject to collectively bargained agreements. If the ned a variance frim that agreement, they have to negotiate or go to arbitration. This isnt some airy fairy land where everyone can just do what they like. Its an industry with 15+ unions. The problem here is that the producer did not his job - and AFM did not challenge him sooner. But he has no right to violate the rules just because he wants to | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 02:12 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:11 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - NewtonUK 01:58 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| Your rendition of the facts regarding what has been/is being done in this case is incorrect, as is your understanding of the process, which is very clear in Section V. F. of the CBA. | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:48 am EDT 06/04/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - ryhog 02:11 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| As I read (V)(f) and all the appendices about adjustments to (V)(f), it remains clear that the a) the producer is meant to contact AFM expeditiously after acquiring a theatre to bring the Special Situation to the union's attention. It is also mentioned in the CBA that AFM might already be aware of major productions that have been done other than on Broadway, under considerations in variance with the CBA. It is clear that (V)(F) anticipates productions like RENT or ONCE etc, that by the nature of the music and style may require a smaller orchestra than a current minimum at a Broadway theatre. What (V)(F) does not seem to anticipate is a musical show whose special circumstance requires no orchestra, and will be using tracks rather than live musicians. There is a musical director, who one assumes is AFM. Lets keep in mind that this musical without musicians also eliminates the job of a rehearsal pianist or rehearsal musicians, most likely, as well as payments to orchestrators and copyists. Potentially there are losses in income of $150,000+ pre opening, and $42,000+ per week during performances. Plus large losses of benefits being paid into the union benefit plans, although I assume that the 045 will still be paid, so the AFM pension plan will get its share - but their health plan will get nothing - of the producers get their way. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:09 pm EDT 06/04/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - NewtonUK 10:48 am EDT 06/04/23 | |
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| A couple of key elements that you don't get quite right. 1. Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, the V.F. procedures are currently underway. I do not know when the initiation commenced but that's moot at this point. The contract urges expedition but iirc 2. There is nothing in the CBA that I see suggesting (as you do) that "fewer than" the minimum (here, 19) excludes its natural meaning which would be 0-18. Having said that, we can agree that the production is dealing with this in a monumentally unwise way. Also, as I have said before, considering the live music at the end, it is inconceivable that the correct number is 0. A couple of other tangents. * The way the committee operates, it is basically up to the (odd number of) neutral(s) to make the decision since the league and union members are equally split. And to me the consist of the neutrals leans management. * It is possible if not likely that the reason for this line in the sand approach is to be a precursor to what is likely to be a very ugly new contract negotiation in which there will be claims of existential threats on both sides, which has become popular (and often for good reason). |
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| Then they don't have to open on Broadway with the Broadway rules. nmi | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 01:12 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - Hair 08:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:38 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - Hair 08:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| Good point! I don’t want to be locked into the terms of my current lease agreement - do you think I could tell my landlord I’m just not going to pay rent anymore? | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 08:52 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 08:51 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - Hair 08:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| NewtonUK is pointing out the hypocrisy of the “it can’t possibly be done with live musicians!” argument… which you yourself have promoted. Byrne and co. can do whatever they want. But if they rent a Broadway venue, they play by Broadway rules. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - MockingbirdGirl 08:51 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| You (and Newt, among others) betray a misapprehension about the arrangement and conveyance of music. One can always play the entire score of South Pacific on a piano, but it is not the same and I don't think you would anticipate R&H going along with it for a Broadway production. The music envisioned by Byrne et al cannot be played raw, and it cannot be produced in real time on a sound board. That is a fact that cannot intelligently be disputed. Your second paragraph is equally jumbled. Byrne and co can do whatever they want in a Broadway theatre but that does not mean that the production does not have to play by the rules of the CBA. This is 100% about money and contracts, and 0% about artistic intention. Similarly, a production can decide that its star is non-fungible and ask AEA to waive the requirement of an understudy. That request may or may not be granted but the show does not have to go forward with the understudy. I point all of this out because there is way too much misinformation surrounding this subject. If you have not read the article alanscott linked (and that I urged everyone to read) now would be a good time. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 12:49 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:42 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - ryhog 11:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| By article, do you mean the Facebook post? I’m not clear what that communicated that works against what MBG wrote (which actually says, in the second paragraph, exactly what you are saying). | |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 12:19 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 12:18 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - ryhog 11:44 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| I've read alanscott's post... and have not written anything that contradicts it. Also, the waiver you suggest to dispense with musicians has already been denied. Now here's one that perhaps you haven't read: |
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| Link | A View from the Podium |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:07 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - MockingbirdGirl 12:18 pm EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| I had not read the piece you link, and I appreciate your providing it. I have no problem with your second paragraph. My issue is with "the hypocrisy of the 'it can’t possibly be done with live musicians!' argument" because (and yes I know I am beginning to sound like a broken record, no pun intended) it is in fact not possible to replicate a fully "produced" recording [which is what the substance of the show calls for, except for the end piece] with live musicians performing in the theatre. Now folks can say the didn't notice and don't care, but that's no different than someone saying the score of South Pacific can be played on a synth and that they wouldn't notice the difference or wouldn't care. Now you say that "the waiver has already been denied." Unless you know something that no one else does, that's not true. My understanding is that the procedure in the CBA is in process. By the way, at a bare minimum, musicians covered under the CBA would be required for the end piece I mention above. And if the production is stuck on zero musicians (and I don't think it is), then the options are (more or less as your article says) to move, to pay 19 musicians or such lesser number as determined by the committee) not to play, or to cancel the production. |
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| re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA | |
| Posted by: kidmanboy 09:30 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
| In reply to: re: HERE LIES LOVE originally WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA - MockingbirdGirl 08:51 am EDT 06/03/23 | |
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| Were these concerts staged at all like the production that’s been performed for the past decade? Did it indeed have the same sound as what has been performed in the theater? At this point it seems like either the union and show come to a compromise or the entire show is cancelled. I don’t think there’s a future where the production decides to incorporate an orchestra. |
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