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| The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 02:44 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Based on what I've read, the Encores "Pal Joey" has completely scrapped the book. This is NOT a revisal or edit or simply an updated version - the book has been tossed out and an entirely new one has been written, in which Joey is not longer a heel, but is instead: "a Black jazz singer, moving the setting to the dawn of the bebop era in the early 1940s. Because he hears “a sound no one is vibing with yet,” LaGravenese said, their Joey is a misunderstood genius, not a heel. The challenge is to give this character a full journey that’s very specific to his being a Black man in that time,” Beaty said, “without losing his edge.” It's also now a jukebox musical. I have no problem with jukebox musicals (Crazy For You was a hit), but shouldn't they retitle it if they completely throw out the book? Does anyone know someone working on it who can confirm what I've read? |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:04 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 02:44 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| What I do not understand about projects like this (the Encores! THE LIFE was another) was that the creative team clearly has a very specific story that they want to tell here that is not PAL JOEY and has nothing at all to do with PAL JOEY, so why have they not just written their own show? I mean...it kind of seems like they actually HAVE written their own show, but aren't confident in their work or their vision and so are hiding behind Rodgers and Hart and the PAL JOEY title. Clearly there's a lot of talent behind this production and new score would only serve the story they want to tell, certainly better than a bunch of random Rodgers and Hart songs that were originally written to tell other stories. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - JereNYC 11:04 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| I confess I am not interested in this regardless, and I have not paid attention to much of the publicity, but is the score not intact? If so, how does this differ from any adapted project? | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 06:03 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| I think several of you hit the nail on the head - you don't want to do Pal Joey, that's fine. Changes the title, call it 'inspired by' Pal Joey. There is no additional music credit; they call it based on the original book by ... not for my hard earned $. Pal Joey is a terrific musical in most ways. It doesnt need to or deserve to be messed about like this. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:23 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - NewtonUK 06:03 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| How do you define "messed about"? How do you define "like this"? What if what is "messed about like this" turns out to be terrific? As you are well aware, anyone can use any title for any purpose with impunity. As you are also aware, the rights holders (who have made enough money on this earth already) have every right to license the property in any way they see fit. What you (and others - this site seems to be the international headquarters of musical theatre purists) seem to want is to have themselves substituted for those to whom the dead chose to delegate their rights. That's cool. I just want to claim all rights, title and interest in Jeff Bezos's business interests and net worth. I promise I will use that money to buy all rights to Pal Joey and throw what I receive into a museum's vault, which I promise to name Amazon. Needless to say, we will never ever agree on this subject but maybe there is one subject on which we could agree. I would like to lobby for the repeal of the Sonny Bono Act. That would put Pal Joey in the public domain and the people whose power you want to appropriate would be rendered powerless. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 03:04 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 07:23 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| If it turns out to be terrific, that's great. But it will not be Pal Joey and should not be titled as such. There have been numerous examples of estates doing terrible things with creators' works, and people have spoken out against them. Stephen Sondheim took the major step of writing an editorial in the NY Times to protest what was being done to Porgy and Bess in Boston - they actually wrote a new happy ending, which they later dropped due to protests. We should all push estates to respect the trust they have been given. If they want to replace a book, fine - just change the title, too, as was done with Crazy For You. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:16 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 03:04 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| 1. No matter how clever or original, no title is the property of the person who wrote it. Accordingly, an estate (or anyone else) lacks any basis for asserting a right to a title. 2. I dare say there have been many times more examples of creators doing terrible things. Anyone can protest anything: that's free speech, but meaningless. And using Sondheim as an example not only is of no greater import but is also ironic because both living and dead he has done precisely what he was criticizing.Finally, I think you have a causation issue. 3. There is quite a bit of presumption in saying that estates are not respecting the trust they have been given. That assumes the point you are trying to prove. I think most decedents have given their literary executors trust because they feel they will act consistent with the best interests that they have set out for the estate. See Sondheim. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 07:17 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 02:16 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| I'm not assuming anything. There are numerous examples of estates allowing works to be butchered to make more money. This has been discussed numerous times. I obviously know that the estate has the legal right to do whatever it wants, no matter how egregious. But speaking up can have an effect, as Sondheim's editorial proved. Again, I have no problem with adaptations - have at it. But - again - tossing out a book completely is not an adaptation, and the ethically correct and respectful thing to do is to retitle the work, as was done with Crazy For You. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:13 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 03:04 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| just change the title, too, as was done with Crazy For You. Which also could have been Lend Me A Zangler...:-) |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 05:22 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| It differs from any other adapted project in that nothing has been adapted. It's an entirely new book that has nothing to do with the original book. So it is not an adaptation. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: owk 01:14 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 05:22 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| As someone who saw a reading of this version, I have to correct a misapprehension. This is not a show that has "nothing to do with the original book." In fact, it retains the basic shape of the original book, most of the characters, and much of the score. It also has a lot of interpolated numbers which, to me, were a clear case of overcompensation. But to say that it has abandoned the basic story of Pal Joey is not accurate. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 02:59 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - owk 01:14 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| I don't see how that can be. The whole purpose of the John O'Hara stories, and of the original play, was to attempt to mount a musical with an anti-hero in the lead. The show is famous for having a main character who is a heel. But the writers themselves say, "their Joey is a misunderstood genius, not a heel." I don't see how you can eliminate the fundamental core of the story and still call it Pal Joey. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:28 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| My understanding is that this is an entirely new book telling a new story with different characters with songs from the PAL JOEY score along with other Rodgers and Hart songs. This doesn't feel like an adaptation at all to me. This feels like they stopped one step short of writing a brand new show and slapped a familiar title on it to sell tickets. Even CRAZY FOR YOU followed the broad outline of GIRL CRAZY with analogous characters and plotlines and that was billed as a new Gershwin musical and meant to be in the style of a show from the 1930's filtered through a 90's sensibility. This project does not sound at all like CRAZY FOR YOU to me. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Ann 11:14 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - JereNYC 11:04 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| They could name it Crazy for Joey. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:31 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Ann 11:14 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Or maybe "I Could Re-Write A Book"?? | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:55 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 02:44 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| I know we all have different definitions of "jukebox musical," but I don't agree that this is one, nor is Crazy For You. Not that I'm trying to defend this project - I'm not. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 03:53 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Chromolume 10:55 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Agreed. The songs were written for the theater. A jukebox musical is when you take a bunch of ABBA songs or Britney Spears hits and fashion a plot around them. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:56 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - KingSpeed 03:53 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Many of the songs in CFY were written for story-based musical theater. Many of them were written for story-based movies. Some of them were written as stand-alone songs in follies show. One of them is a piano roll that George wrote when he was a piano salesman. One of them is a concerto that Gershwin wrote for classical orchestras. While a good chunk of the songs were written for Girl Crazy, Ludwig also pulled a bunch of the other songs in order to fit the plot of the musical he was writing, including using one song that had been effectively lost until 1982. It may not be a full-fledged jukebox musical, but it was a significant step along the way, and it uses a great deal of songs that weren’t intended for musical theater as we know it. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 12:33 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:30 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Singapore/Fling 10:56 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| The 1962 off-Broadway production of Anything Goes (with Hal Linden as Billy) scrapped some of the original score, and added SIX songs that weren't from the show originally. But it wasn't what I'd call a jukebox musical. It still isn't, even in its current version, which got rid of (only) 4 of those added songs, restored most of the original ones, and then went ahead and added more songs that had nothing to do with the original show. I don't think that padding an existing show with extra songs (something that's been done a fair amount) is "jukebox" or even "on the way to jukebox." Neither was adding "I Say A Little Prayer" and "A House Is Not A Home" to the revival of Promises, Promises, neither is adding the film songs into Grease, etc. How about performances of Fidelio that add the Leonore #3? :-) |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Chromolume 12:30 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| I agree about Anything Goes (or even the new Pal Joey), but the ratio in Crazy for You is quite different, though, as is the construction of the play. The script is wholly original, with Ludwig keeping only the starting premise of Girl Crazy (Easterner goes West and falls in love). The score includes 21 songs, of which only 6 are from Girl Crazy. Of the remaining, 4 are from the movie “A Damsel in Distress”, 3 are from the movie “Shall We Dance”, 2 are from “Treasure Girl”, and then 1 each from “Oh, Kay!”, “George White’s Scandals” (being “Stairway to Paradise”, which is not sung in the show but serves as the main theme for the showgirls’ entrance), “Ladies First” (which featured the first song written by the Gershwin brothers), and “Primrose” (which was written for the West End and didn’t premiere in the States until 1987), as well as excerpts from the musical pieces Rialto Ripples and Concerto in F. The resulting musical is much more like the films “An American in Paris” and “Funny Face” - both arguably jukebox musicals by the common definition of a show featuring songs not written for it - than it is “Girl Crazy”. It’s not a show with some interpolations, it’s something crafted entirely from the ground up pulling from the Gershwin oeuvre. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:41 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| Yes, but even so, I tend to define jukebox musicals as those that use pop/rock catalogues, not so much the kind of standards that were (yes) part of the pop music before that. I'm not sure I'd qualify Ain't Misbehavin' or Sophisticated Ladies as jukebox. Nor shows like A Class Act, Starting Here Starting Now, or Closer Than Ever, that contain songs by Broadway writers, with a mix of songs both written for the theatre and not. For me, the early jukebox shows were ones like Leader Of The Pack and Smokey Joe's Cafe - shows that took pre-existing rock/pop songs and used them in either book or revue formats, either to highlight the careers of the singers/writers, the era, or a new story fashioned around the songs. Whereas shows like My One And Only or Big Deal or Side By Side By Sondheim were not jukebox. YMMV, of course. :-) |
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| Smokey Joe’s Cafe isn’t a jukebox musical either. | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:54 am EDT 10/07/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Chromolume 04:41 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| It’s a revue. | |
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| Smokey Joe’s Cafe is a jukebox musical. | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:06 am EDT 10/07/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:06 am EDT 10/07/23 | |
| In reply to: Smokey Joe’s Cafe isn’t a jukebox musical either. - KingSpeed 04:54 am EDT 10/07/23 | |
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| I don't see why revues can't be jukebox shows, especially if they're using a pop/rock catalogue. | |
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| re: Smokey Joe’s Cafe is not a jukebox musical. | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 09:46 am EDT 10/10/23 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 09:40 am EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: Smokey Joe’s Cafe is a jukebox musical. - Chromolume 11:06 am EDT 10/07/23 | |
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| The songs aren't used to tell a story. It's just a revue. | |
| Link | Wikipedia: Revues are not jukebox musicals |
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| Smokey Joe’s Cafe is a jukebox musical. | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:02 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: Smokey Joe’s Cafe is not a jukebox musical. - KingSpeed 09:40 am EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping. I don't see what's wrong a jukebox musical also being in a revue format. We will just have to agree to disagree, and let's please end this here. Too many awful things going on in the world right now. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 05:18 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Chromolume 04:41 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| We clearly need a universal definition :-) Even Wikipedia says 'The origin of the phrase "jukebox musical" in its current meaning is unclear.' And the first example they list is Bubbling Brown Sugar in 1976, with a special mention to The Beggar's Opera. I personally never thought of revues as jukebox musicals because I think Jukebox musicals use their songs to tell a story with a plot, and usually not associated with the original artist/context of the songs. This to me excludes things like Ain't Misbehavin'. And I would never remotely consider the Maltby and Shire revues you list. A Class Act is an interesting case. It is jukebox in the sense that the songs are used to tell a story that is different from the one(s) they were originally written to tell. But also strikes one as not jukebox since all of the songs are written in a very recognizable modern musical theatre styles--meaning definitely not pop songs. Putting it Together is also an interesting case. It is not a traditional revue. The songs tells a loose story, or at least outline a series of events and sktech characters that are different from the ones in the shows they come from. I think people don't use the terms jukebox because it's Sondheim and because the songs were written for the theatre in the first place. This article was interesting to me as well. The author breaks Jukebox musicals down into many sub categories that I hadn't really contemplated. |
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| Link | Jukebox Musicals |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:11 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - KingSpeed 03:53 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Of course, Crazy For You could have been a Madonna jukebox musical...;-) | |
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| We’ve had a ‘Not Camelot’ and a ‘Not On a Clear Day’… | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 08:38 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 08:37 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Chromolume 04:11 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| We had « Not Camelot » and « Not on a Clear Day »…Nahum Tate’s King Lear, and even the last ‘Pal Joey’ with Mathhew Risch (which I, in a minority, completely loved, especially when Martha Plimpton walked away with the show in the role for which Helen Gallagher had won her first Tony). My point? They muck around with shows, they always have. |
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| re: We’ve had a ‘Not Camelot’ and a ‘Not On a Clear Day’… | |
| Posted by: marknyc 01:18 pm EDT 10/07/23 | |
| In reply to: We’ve had a ‘Not Camelot’ and a ‘Not On a Clear Day’… - lordofspeech 08:37 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| And your point is completely wrong. Obviously, we all know that musicals are often adapted, even reimagined, like Clear Day. But you actually can't see the difference between Camelot - which changed lines and pulled ideas from the original book, while maintaining the plot, characters, and structure - to this show, which seems to have completely junked the book and written an entirely new one from scratch? The word "adaptation" means to adapt something - to make changes, to revise and perhaps update. Not to throw it out completely and write something entirely new. That appears to be what has happened here, and if that's the case, the show should be retitled. Again, this is not an adaptation - it's a new show. |
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| It still can be!!!! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:14 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Chromolume 04:11 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Get to work. | |
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| re: It still can be!!!! | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:31 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: It still can be!!!! - ryhog 05:14 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Papa, don't preach. :-) | |
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| re: It still can be!!!! | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:35 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It still can be!!!! - Chromolume 11:31 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Already done by Betty Hutton in "Perils of Pauline"! | |
| Link | Betty Hutton - "Papa Don't Preach" |
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| re: It still can be!!!! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:55 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It still can be!!!! - Chromolume 11:31 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Oh Material Girl, Vogue into the groove, open your heart to express yourself and justify my love. Then, take a bow. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: portenopete 10:17 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 02:44 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| That seems crazy. If this is true, do they think that there is such a sizeable number of Rodgers & Hart aficionados who will turn out on the strength of the title alone? If there are, then why not just do PAL JOEY? Or honestly proceed with a new musical that is inspired by an old classic? | |
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| Anyone here see 'Pal Joey '78'? You mustn't kick it around, or why not? | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 12:11 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:02 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - portenopete 10:17 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| It starred Lena Horne and Clifton Davis, was directed by Michael Kidd and played a short run in L.A. and San Francisco. It promised a ''disco-tized'' version of Rodgers & Hart. I think it was aiming for Broadway, but in terms of rave reviews, the critics gave it ''Zip''! |
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| Link | Ovrtur: 'Pal Joey '78' |
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| re: Anyone here see 'Pal Joey '78'? You mustn't kick it around, or why not? | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:55 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: Anyone here see 'Pal Joey '78'? You mustn't kick it around, or why not? - WaymanWong 12:02 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| I wish! I did see THE HOT MIKADO, which I actually enjoyed. Like CARMEN JONES, it's still the original but just rejigged. Doing a jukebox musical and calling it PAL JOEY seems like false advertising! | |
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| re: Anyone here see 'Pal Joey '78'? You mustn't kick it around, or why not? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 12:53 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: Anyone here see 'Pal Joey '78'? You mustn't kick it around, or why not? - WaymanWong 12:02 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| It was dreadful. Horne must have sung Bewitched at least 5 times throughout the evening. The disco arrangements did not enhance that wonderful score. The updating was embarrassing. Even the great Lena Horne couldn’t make something out of it, no one could! Perhaps the failure of that show was the impetus to tell her own story because A Lady and Her Music appeared just one year later. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: bmc 08:03 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 02:44 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| why not call it THE SOUND OF MUSIC, since you can;t copyright titles? | |
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| re: You could also call it FISHLAHOMA! | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 06:03 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - bmc 08:03 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| nm | |
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