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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:04 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 02:44 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| What I do not understand about projects like this (the Encores! THE LIFE was another) was that the creative team clearly has a very specific story that they want to tell here that is not PAL JOEY and has nothing at all to do with PAL JOEY, so why have they not just written their own show? I mean...it kind of seems like they actually HAVE written their own show, but aren't confident in their work or their vision and so are hiding behind Rodgers and Hart and the PAL JOEY title. Clearly there's a lot of talent behind this production and new score would only serve the story they want to tell, certainly better than a bunch of random Rodgers and Hart songs that were originally written to tell other stories. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - JereNYC 11:04 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| I confess I am not interested in this regardless, and I have not paid attention to much of the publicity, but is the score not intact? If so, how does this differ from any adapted project? | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 06:03 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| I think several of you hit the nail on the head - you don't want to do Pal Joey, that's fine. Changes the title, call it 'inspired by' Pal Joey. There is no additional music credit; they call it based on the original book by ... not for my hard earned $. Pal Joey is a terrific musical in most ways. It doesnt need to or deserve to be messed about like this. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:23 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - NewtonUK 06:03 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| How do you define "messed about"? How do you define "like this"? What if what is "messed about like this" turns out to be terrific? As you are well aware, anyone can use any title for any purpose with impunity. As you are also aware, the rights holders (who have made enough money on this earth already) have every right to license the property in any way they see fit. What you (and others - this site seems to be the international headquarters of musical theatre purists) seem to want is to have themselves substituted for those to whom the dead chose to delegate their rights. That's cool. I just want to claim all rights, title and interest in Jeff Bezos's business interests and net worth. I promise I will use that money to buy all rights to Pal Joey and throw what I receive into a museum's vault, which I promise to name Amazon. Needless to say, we will never ever agree on this subject but maybe there is one subject on which we could agree. I would like to lobby for the repeal of the Sonny Bono Act. That would put Pal Joey in the public domain and the people whose power you want to appropriate would be rendered powerless. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 03:04 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 07:23 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| If it turns out to be terrific, that's great. But it will not be Pal Joey and should not be titled as such. There have been numerous examples of estates doing terrible things with creators' works, and people have spoken out against them. Stephen Sondheim took the major step of writing an editorial in the NY Times to protest what was being done to Porgy and Bess in Boston - they actually wrote a new happy ending, which they later dropped due to protests. We should all push estates to respect the trust they have been given. If they want to replace a book, fine - just change the title, too, as was done with Crazy For You. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:16 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 03:04 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| 1. No matter how clever or original, no title is the property of the person who wrote it. Accordingly, an estate (or anyone else) lacks any basis for asserting a right to a title. 2. I dare say there have been many times more examples of creators doing terrible things. Anyone can protest anything: that's free speech, but meaningless. And using Sondheim as an example not only is of no greater import but is also ironic because both living and dead he has done precisely what he was criticizing.Finally, I think you have a causation issue. 3. There is quite a bit of presumption in saying that estates are not respecting the trust they have been given. That assumes the point you are trying to prove. I think most decedents have given their literary executors trust because they feel they will act consistent with the best interests that they have set out for the estate. See Sondheim. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 07:17 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 02:16 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| I'm not assuming anything. There are numerous examples of estates allowing works to be butchered to make more money. This has been discussed numerous times. I obviously know that the estate has the legal right to do whatever it wants, no matter how egregious. But speaking up can have an effect, as Sondheim's editorial proved. Again, I have no problem with adaptations - have at it. But - again - tossing out a book completely is not an adaptation, and the ethically correct and respectful thing to do is to retitle the work, as was done with Crazy For You. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:13 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 03:04 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| just change the title, too, as was done with Crazy For You. Which also could have been Lend Me A Zangler...:-) |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 05:22 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| It differs from any other adapted project in that nothing has been adapted. It's an entirely new book that has nothing to do with the original book. So it is not an adaptation. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: owk 01:14 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - marknyc 05:22 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| As someone who saw a reading of this version, I have to correct a misapprehension. This is not a show that has "nothing to do with the original book." In fact, it retains the basic shape of the original book, most of the characters, and much of the score. It also has a lot of interpolated numbers which, to me, were a clear case of overcompensation. But to say that it has abandoned the basic story of Pal Joey is not accurate. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: marknyc 02:59 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - owk 01:14 am EDT 10/06/23 | |
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| I don't see how that can be. The whole purpose of the John O'Hara stories, and of the original play, was to attempt to mount a musical with an anti-hero in the lead. The show is famous for having a main character who is a heel. But the writers themselves say, "their Joey is a misunderstood genius, not a heel." I don't see how you can eliminate the fundamental core of the story and still call it Pal Joey. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:28 pm EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - ryhog 11:52 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| My understanding is that this is an entirely new book telling a new story with different characters with songs from the PAL JOEY score along with other Rodgers and Hart songs. This doesn't feel like an adaptation at all to me. This feels like they stopped one step short of writing a brand new show and slapped a familiar title on it to sell tickets. Even CRAZY FOR YOU followed the broad outline of GIRL CRAZY with analogous characters and plotlines and that was billed as a new Gershwin musical and meant to be in the style of a show from the 1930's filtered through a 90's sensibility. This project does not sound at all like CRAZY FOR YOU to me. |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Ann 11:14 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - JereNYC 11:04 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| They could name it Crazy for Joey. | |
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| re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:31 pm EDT 10/06/23 | |
| In reply to: re: The Encores "Not Pal Joey" - Ann 11:14 am EDT 10/05/23 | |
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| Or maybe "I Could Re-Write A Book"?? | |
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