Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:07 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - oddone 02:53 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| If a production doesn't invite voters in anticipation of a later transfer, does it automatically follow that it would then still be eligible for those awards after the transfer? I guess it would if all this happens within the same season, but, if HERE WE ARE transfers to Broadway for the 24-25 season, will they still be eligible for all those other non-Tony awards when they didn't invite voters during their initial season? | |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: oddone 04:46 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - JereNYC 03:07 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| Short answer - yes. Generally for the awards that cover both Broadway and Off Broadway (Drama Desk, Outer Critics), a show's elements are only eligible in one awards cycle. So if the show is eligible when it is Off Broadway, and the Broadway transfer happens in a subsequent season, only the new elements in that Broadway transfer would be eligible. So you see with A Strange Loop, most elements of the Broadway transfer (book/score, design, supporting cast, the production itself) were not eligible, but since Jaquel Spivey was playing Usher, he WAS eligible, since he didn't play that role in the Playwrights Horizons production. Generally, "elements" are taken to mean the names of people. To my understanding, even if a set designer radically changed their design, if they are the same person attached to both productions, they would not be eligible again. The design crew for Here Lies Love is the same as at the Public, so all design elements for that show won't be eligible again, but the new cast members will be. Merrily We Roll Along has no new elements, so nothing in it will be eligible this season. For something like Days of Wine and Roses, where the Off Bway and Bway runs occur within the same season, my understanding is that the awards generally consider both productions. (And presumably, if a designer or actor gets swapped out, they could consider either person. Or even both. In theory, you could have two different actors nominated for the same role in the same production - one Off Bway and one Bway - but I doubt that would ever happen.) Likewise, if a show was NOT eligible in a previous Off Broadway run, for whatever reason, that same show could be eligible in a Broadway transfer. There is nothing saying that ONLY the first run could be eligible. Basically, eligibility is contingent on inviting the nominating committee (and playing in NYC, and running long enough, etc.). If a show doesn't invite nominators, it isn't eligible, so for the sake of those awards, it's as if that production hasn't happened. So if a show that never invited nominators before transfers, and now they choose to invite nominators, everything in that show - cast, score/book, design - would now be eligible. And whereas the Outer Critics Circle separates Broadway and Off Broadway shows (in many, but not all, categories), the Drama Desk does not. And, as has been noted by many on here, this means that Broadway nominees end up winning most of the time, simply because that is what more voters have seen. (And there are many reasons for this. In some cases, voters aren't even invited to Off Broadway runs; it isn't uncommon for a show to be eligible, and to get nominations, when it didn't invite voters.) So there is some logic to making the Off Broadway run of your show non-eligible, if you are confident a transfer is coming. |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:52 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - oddone 04:46 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| Brandon Victor Dixon was nominated for a DD while Joshua Henry was nominated for a Tony for the same role | |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: oddone 05:03 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - KingSpeed 04:52 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| Are you talking about The Scottsboro Boys? The Broadway transfer happened in the season after the one where the Vineyard production was eligible. So two different seasons. | |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 12:15 am EDT 10/11/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - oddone 05:03 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| I know it was in two seasons. Just saying two actors were nominated for the same role in which was basically the same production. | |
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| Sorry- what I meant... | |
| Posted by: oddone 10:59 am EDT 10/11/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - KingSpeed 12:15 am EDT 10/11/23 | |
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| I went back and read what I wrote and I see your confusion. You're responding to this: In theory, you could have two different actors nominated for the same role in the same production - one Off Bway and one Bway - but I doubt that would ever happen. That was in the paragraph where I was talking about Days of Wine and Roses - so I was talking about how it would be theoretically possible for the same awards body to nominate two different actors for the same role in the same production within the same season. Like if someone else replaced Brian D'Arcy James for the Broadway version, it would theoretically be possible for the Drama Desk to nominate both Brian D'Arcy James and that other actor for playing the same role, and if they did so, both would be nominated in this spring's nominations. Such a thing would likely never happen for many reasons, not the least of which is that it would be super rare for a mid-season transfer to replace an actor who was giving a nomination-worthy performance Off Broadway (Brian D'Arcy James isn't being replaced). But in theory it could happen. There have been several instances - as you noted - where different awards bodies have nominated different actors for the same role in the same production, although that's almost always in two different seasons. And there have even been cases where the SAME awards body nominated two different actors for the same role in the same production - again, in different seasons. The most recent that comes to mind is Larry Owens and then Jaquel Spivey for A Strange Loop - the Drama Desk nominated both, in 2020 and then 2022. |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:49 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - JereNYC 03:07 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| I have never heard of a rule to that effect. It also bears noting that, not unlike the Tonys (at least to some extent), these 2 groups can adjust their rules quite easily and, logically, it is in their interests to do so. I don't see how the season has anything to do with it. There are several reasons they might not have been invited. One is that they are transferring (in spite of what seems like a weak economic motivation to do so) and another is that, if so, they may want to make some changes before they do.(or not.) Another is that they will not transfer and would rather not have a record of not winning this if they project that they would not. And still another is that there is a growing sentiment (and it would not surprise me if Mr. Kirdahy was a part of it) against these invitations. Because these groups (especially reduced by the members who are actually critics and have been invited as such) are not that large and they have empty seats, there is no reason they could not have invited these groups pre-opening if they wanted to save the later tickets and have plenty of seats now. |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: oddone 04:59 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - ryhog 03:49 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| Because these groups (especially reduced by the members who are actually critics and have been invited as such) are not that large and they have empty seats, there is no reason they could not have invited these groups pre-opening if they wanted to save the later tickets and have plenty of seats now. This is a point that is often overlooked. The voting bodies aren't that large (around 100 in each, I think, as compared to the Tony awards, which is probably 8 times that). There is also significant overlap with the Drama Desk and Outer Critics - there are a fair number of people who belong to both organizations, but obviously only need to be invited once. Not to mention, not every voter comes, especially to Off Broadway productions. Off Broadway shows will sometimes only give voters a single ticket, as opposed to two (the Public does this). And I've also seen where shows get very strict about tickets in terms of when you can come - if you can't make the specific dates, you're out of luck. Generally the invited dates are post-opening, but there is nothing saying they have to be. Not to mention, it is possible to just invite nominators, and not voters. St. Ann's Warehouse does this. (I've heard the rationale is "well we never win so why bother inviting voters" which seems sort of chicken and egg to me, but whatever.) And there are - what - a handful of nominators for each awards body? |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:09 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - oddone 04:59 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| Just curious: if St A's invites nominators only, what is the point? I assume a show cannot (or would not, in any event) be nominated if voters were not invited at some point. | |
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| re: It hasn’t opened yet. | |
| Posted by: oddone 10:11 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
| In reply to: re: It hasn’t opened yet. - ryhog 08:09 pm EDT 10/10/23 | |
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| Shows can be nominated as long as the nominators are invited, and regardless of whether or not voters are invited. It isn't like the Tony Awards, where eligibility is contingent on the voters being given a chance to attend. St. Ann's shows often get nominated in various categories, but don't invite voters. (Some may well get invited as reviewers for specific publications, but they won't get invited "as voters.") Of course, if you don't invite the voters, you almost definitely won't WIN. (The chicken/egg thing - they presumably don't invite voters because they don't think they will win, but of course if you don't invite the voters you definitely won't win.) But as long as you invite the nominators, the show is deemed eligible. (I know this is the case with Drama Desk, and I assume it's similar with Outer Critics, although perhaps not.) |
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