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| what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: Lucille Lortel Award winners include (pray) and 'The Comeuppance' (over 'Stereophonic') - WaymanWong 10:35 pm EDT 05/05/24 | |
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| Since they've gone to non-gendered awards, they nominate less people and give half the acting awards? It used to be, for example, Best Featured Actor and Best Featured Actress in a musical, and each category had 5 nominees and 1 winner. 10 nominations and 2 winners. Now that it's not gendered it is Outstanding Featured Performer... with only 7 nominees and only *1* winner. All their acting categories this year have only 7 noms and only 1 win. How is this progress? To take away recognition, to shrink the number of actors honored and given a spotlight with the nomination, and cut in half the amount of winners... Who is this helping? Am i missing something here? If you do non-gendered category, you must still nominate 10 performances for the category (be it Lead in Musical, Featured in Musical, Lead in Play, Featured in Play), and award TWO winners, regardless of the gender of the performances that win. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 05:13 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Well, here's the thing...if there are fewer winners, no matter what the award is, it makes winning even more special for those who do win and might make the award itself actually mean something. Most of these non-Tony theatre awards are a mystery to anyone not actually involved in the business. What does it mean to win a Lortel or a Drama Desk or an Obie or whatever? What does it mean if you've won one and there were actually multiple winners in your category and myriad winners in your season? These awards start to look like participation trophies at the annual Little League banquet. I like this idea. Let's create one award for each category, eg: Best Performance in a Leading Role in a Play, and nominate a set amount of performers regardless of gender, and choose a single winner each season (unless there's a tie). You'd want to make sure that your nominating committee is a good mix of people so that you end up with some diversity in the slate of nominees, but I don't see why this can't work. Then the people that win truly have won something. Creative awards like Best Set Design or Best Direction aren't divided up by gender and never have been and I don't see any reason why performance awards should be. Sure, it's difficult to compare this performance to that performance and "Best" is always going to be subjective on the part of the voters, but that has always been the case. If it's just too hard to choose between performers and it's all the harder due to their varying genders, then it's clearly too challenging to even have awards. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 03:55 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| You could do that. But then. the first time the two winners in a category were both men - as would happen at some time or another - oh! the screaming and yelling we would hear from those who see injustice behind every tree. No one wants to live through that. So half as many award winners. Congrats for taking honors away from deserving artists. For the record, according to statistics, 97.3% of Americans identify as their birth gender. So why are we doing these things with awards? For the .07% of the population? | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:03 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - NewtonUK 03:55 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| If we aren't seeing or caring about gender, then it's going to eventually have to reflect in not caring if it's two men or two women or two non-binary or two trans men or two trans women or what. I don't really have a concern for what people want to live through with regard to this, and I get the sense that neither do you, I know your post is largely sarcastic. But I think with theater awards, the more likely scenario is for a woman or two women to end up with the win(s). I also think it's probable that voters, if told they can only vote for 2, will often take those 2 votes and use them on a female performance and a male performance. But who knows. That's part of the point, is seeing the performances for the performance and without regard for the gender of the performer, but with regard to the type of role it is (Featured or Lead, Musical or Play). |
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| Keep making changes & know one will care | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 11:45 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| It reached a point with all these changes I'm wishing for the good old days of Award giving.The way it was. Soon all these changes are going to turn theatre people and public totally off. It will be who gives a damn about any of it. | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: IvyLeagueDropout 09:22 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| I still wish they said "And the winner is" when giving awards. Ultimately, the most sensitive thing that can be done is to give no awards. Any system is subjective and potentially offensive. Gendered awards only offend those seeking to be offended. Fewer nominees and fewer winners is a major cost of virtue signaling. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 07:13 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 07:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| If you do non-gendered category, you must still nominate 10 performances for the category... and award TWO winners, regardless of the gender of the performances that win. You "must"? Does any other awards show that has gender-neutral categories (the Gothams, Independent Spirit Awards, some Grammy categories, etc.) award multiple winners in a category? I can't think of any that do... and don't think it's a particularly good idea, tbh. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 10:46 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:43 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - MockingbirdGirl 07:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Yes, the Drama Desks, for one. Arguably a bigger award than the Lortels. I am floored that any of you are defending the logic of eliminating 3 nominees and cutting half the winners. How is it "not a particularly good idea"?! Please, I'm genuinely curious for you to explain why the better idea is for 4 people to win instead of 8 (with plays and musicals). You better believe I won't be the only one arguing this if the Tonys or Oscars ever tried to eliminate 30% of the nomination slots and cut HALF the number of winners. Sorry... if this is the way non-gendered awards categories are to go, then may the Tonys and Oscars never adopt it, or any other award that hasn't yet. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 10:59 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 10:43 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| How is it "not a particularly good idea"?! Feels to me like it's unnecessarily opening a can of worms, as opposed to having a single person winning each category. Who will be "outstanding... but not as outstanding as the other person"? Plus, other awards that have adopted genderless categories without multiple winners—which is the majority of them—have done so without controversy. And let's face it, there is no dearth of acting awards (and the Lortels ain't the Tonys or Oscars). I just can't bring myself to feel the outrage you evidently do over the changes. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 01:08 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:59 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - MockingbirdGirl 10:59 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| I'm utterly baffled with your take. Not being hyperbolic, I really am. Your reasoning for taking awards away from actors is "there is no dearth of acting awards"?! I mean, why not just cancel all but 1 or 2 awards organizations? Why even have the Lortels at all? WHy have the Drama Desk? Why have the Outer Critics Circle? Do you think that each season the same 5 people get nominated or win in every awards? Even if it's a lot of the same actors nominated by each organization, it is not actually all the same. The Lortel is a great example of that. This is an award where most of the nominees are not the same as the Tonys, and the Tony front runners can be beat by things not nearly as popular or famous. The Drama Desk is also. But I still can't wrap my head around logic or reasoning. For the entire time we've had actors nominated in each of the 8 categories... and 1 winner in each of the 8. Whether it's 4 or 5 in each, it is that. Those actors compete against 4 (or 3) other actors in their category. Now they compete against SIX other actors, and only one wins. Why is taking away the opportunity to spotlight and recognize great performances in theater something you not only support but think is a *better* idea??! The can of worms was opened already. Why are you afraid of opening the can? So the choice is tell non-binary actors they are forced to pick a gender for their eligibility, OR tell the actors there will be 3 less nomination slots and half as many people can win now? Ridiculous. Neither needs to be the way forward. There is NOTHING too complicated about saying "there are 10 nominees and the 2 with the most votes win." Whether they tie or are extremely close or not close at all is no one's business. Why are you worried about what people think about how the votes broke down to get 2 winners instead of just 1? There were always two, there's absolutely no reason to think that 2 of the 7 won't always be highly regarded enough to get votes. Either because everyone votes for 1 only and it's the 2 who get the most of the votes, or everyone votes for 2 only and it's whoever gets the top 2 rankings of votes. This is pointless madness, I'm sorry. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 02:05 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 12:59 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| No one is having an award "taken away." Only the potential to get an award. We get it, you're upset. I really can't get that worked up. NYC is full of teachers, nurses, etc. who carry on and do their jobs without award recognition. It really is not the most important thing. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:12 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - MockingbirdGirl 02:05 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Yes... and actors should just stop getting awards for achievement in acting because nurses don't get awards. Good point. (and you're wrong, these awards have literally been taken away) |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:44 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 02:12 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Yes... and actors should just stop getting awards for achievement in acting because nurses don't get awards. Good point. Not my point at all, as you well know. I hope the straw man makes you feel better. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:08 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - MockingbirdGirl 03:44 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| You made a false equivalence argument that has nothing to do with the actual thing. I didn't present a straw man, I called out what you were doing. What other professions or crafts do or don't do with regard to acknowledging the work or talent of its practitioners has absolutely not one thing to do with how it's done in entertainment for entertainers. I am not arguing that actors won't live if there are less nomination slots and less awards given. My argument can't be dismissed or invalidated by putting forth an equivalent situation that is not equivalent and has nothing to do with my argument or the situation being discussed. You don't care or agree, or both, about the reduction of nomination slots and winners... fine. Your reasoning for defending it doesn't make sense to me, and your counter argument is "Who cares? No one should care. There are still awards anyway." Great. Cool. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 01:06 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 12:59 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Fewer people win, that’s true. Not everyone can win an award. To me it makes the award more precious. I understand you’re beside yourself with, what : confusion?pain? Agita? But it’s really not worth the raised blood pressure. | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:12 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Billhaven 01:06 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| "Not everyone can win an award"? I'm not arguing for that at all, and you know it. Don't try to dismiss the argument with a false representation of it. These awards aren't premiering this year and I decided to have an issue with. This is a change, made to be INCLUSIVE. But it's the opposite effect. I don't make up awards. I don't make up the Lortels. Your argument makes no sense. I'm not beside myself, and I'm not confused or in pain. I'm bothered and baffled by some of these takes. You don't have to enjoy my posts on this, but just dismissing my argument by misrepresenting it and the reality of awards and this awards until now is pointless. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 01:45 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:12 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Sorry I misrepresented you. I disagree. I’m not going to be drawn in any further. | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 02:14 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:09 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Billhaven 01:45 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Great. Thanks. And I didn't draw you in, you independently decided to comment on my comment, and I responded. Welcome to a chat board. (And my comment was in response to a post that wasn't posted by you, which contained only links, so I was posting an independent question/statement based on an announcement, on topic to the post I was replying to -- you didn't have to comment at all if you didn't want to. But I'm not sure why you're bothered that you countered on a topic we don't agree on, and i, in disagreement, countered... that's what happens.) And yes, god forbid you be "drawn in" (rather, draw yourself in as it were) to a dialogue with such a toxic idea that we should not eliminate half the number of winners and 1/3 the number of nominated performances in the process of making awards non-gendered. Other awards have managed to broaden to be inclusive of non-binary performers without shrinking the nomination slots and winners (and thereby being even more exclusive)... this is not my idea or issue alone, it's one that's been thought out and solved by other awards. The Drama Desk is a fair version of both things being achieved, the Lortel is not. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 02:39 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 02:09 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| I apologized. It apparently wasn’t enough. | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 08:30 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:24 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - MockingbirdGirl 07:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| The Jeff Awards in Chicago went to gender-neutral categories a few years ago with multiple winners in each category. It has produced a few weird results on occasion (presumably because of ties) where there are an embarrassing number of winners in certain categories. For example, if the rule mandates two winners per category, when there is a near unanimous choice for one actor's performance and then three or four others come in second with two votes each, you can have as many as 5 winners instead of just two. Full disclosure: The above is a theoretical example, not an actual occurrence. Nevertheless, there have been some instances of more than two winners in a specific category, and the possibility exists for what I have stated. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Stagebuff718 07:46 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - MockingbirdGirl 07:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| The Drama Desk Awards do exactly that: 10 nominees (providing there's no tie in last place) and two winners in non-gendered categories. It began last year. | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 10:35 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 10:34 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Stagebuff718 07:46 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| I stand corrected. Props to the Lortels for having the Ensemble award, in any event. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Last Edit: writerkev 05:57 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: writerkev 05:39 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: what happened to these acting awards? - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Imagine the pearl-clutching if two men were to win. People would say the same thing. “It used to honor one man and one woman, and now two men got the award. Who is this helping??? It should totally change but still stay the same!” They can’t win. If gender isn’t a thing, then they’ve removed it from consideration, as people have wanted. Then they’ve voted on a “best.” What would it mean to select two from a list as “best”? That’s not what the word “best” means. |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:40 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - writerkev 05:39 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Are you kidding? What a ridiculous take. You genuinely think that there should only be one winner where there's always been two? This is what other awards do. I didn't make up this adapted policy for non-gendered awards... but i certainly would have come up with it if it weren't already being done. "They can't win"... "pearl clutching"? You think it's me clutching my pearls that there used to be 40 nominated actors and 8 actors given the award and now there's 28 nominated actors and only 4 winners? |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: Ann 08:52 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - writerkev 05:39 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| But, in this case of the Lortel Awards, they award Outstanding not Best, so they could give more than one. | |
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| re: what happened to these acting awards? | |
| Posted by: writerkev 09:02 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - Ann 08:52 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| True, and I should have clarified that I used those quotes around “best” not to signify a direct quote, necessarily, but to acknowledge the squishiness and impossibility of even determining the best. I think the concept is the same, whichever word they use. | |
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| it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:41 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: what happened to these acting awards? - writerkev 09:02 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| So the premise of your argument now goes away. You think there can't be two performances voted as the most outstanding? If they can remove the gender AND change the name of the category to Performer from Actor, they can change the name of any award from Best to Outstanding... in this case, they don't have to, it's already called Outstanding. |
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| re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" | |
| Last Edit: writerkev 11:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| Posted by: writerkev 11:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" - Chazwaza 10:41 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| The point remains, whatever the semantics of the name they give the award. An award is for the best. That’s what an award is. I think this way is fine, I think the way the Drama Desks choose to do it is fine. You’re hyperventilating over a set of minor awards. I actually think the Tonys have come up with a very acceptable, though imperfect, system. They maintain the number of acting awards (which, at eight, is double the number for the Oscars, which has an enormous field from which to choose!). If performers who identify as gender-nonconforming or non-binary are eligible, they get to choose which of the categories best represents their identity. Again, not perfect, but it seems the best approach. |
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| re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:04 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" - writerkev 11:10 am EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| NO Kev, the award is for Outstanding. Your understanding of awards is not accurate. I hope one day you're eligible or even nominated for such a minor set of awards as the Lortels or the Drama Desk and tell me you think it's minor, and that this is fair. Tell me you're happy to be up against 6 people instead of 4, and have only 4 people win each season instead of 8. When you're one of the 3 that didn't make the cut of 7 that definitely would have had it been the original 10, let's see what you think. The Tonys have 8 because they do play and musical, not because they just decided to make up extra categories. It's very different to be a performer in a musical vs a play. That is the reason, as you are well aware. Don't act like they already made allowances for more than enough or too many acting awards at the Tonys. I'm okay with taking away the gender (though it brings its own issues), I am absolutely not okay with taking away half the awards and 1/3 of the nomination slots. |
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| re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" | |
| Posted by: writerkev 01:39 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" - Chazwaza 01:04 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| Okay, Chaz. Try not to have a heart attack, okay? | |
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| re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:10 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
| In reply to: re: it's not "Best" it's "Outstanding" - writerkev 01:39 pm EDT 05/06/24 | |
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| I have my doctor on the line, and I'm checking my blood pressure every 10 minutes. Thank you. :) | |
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